Honest Accuracy

Ryan500

Ryan500

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Okay guys, I'm looking for my next milsurp and I need to know some honest numbers. I know lots of people have a M44 that will shoot 1 MOA with silvertip but I don't seem to have that luck.:D

I've been looking at Mausers, what the most accurate in origional form and what can one expect for accuracy at say 100 yards with good handloads?

These are where i'm looking... What do you think of M96's 6.5x55? M38's 6.5x55? and Brazilians in .30-06? Isreali's in 7.62x51?

Thanks.
 
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I own some milsurp rifles which have grouped under an inch and a half at 100yds. All with open sights. Most a number of years ago when the eyes were younger. All with handloads. Some that come to mind are a M38 Swede with a somewhat worn bore. (I now have an additional one that is nearly mint and I can't get it to shoot as well!) A M39 Finn 762x54R Sako barrelled, with cast bullets. ( really nice sights on the 39's) And I can still manage under 2" with my O3A3 and cast bullets. Once again great sights!
If I had to choose one milsurp this afternoon that would probably deliver excellant accuracy, is readily available and not too expensive I would choose a M38 or 96 Swede. As with most if not all milsurps a carefully worked up handload will improve accuracy
 
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old ranger, x2.

R500, shooting with open sites, is a skill, that needs to be developed. Whether from the bench or offhand. If you want honest, set the rifle up in a vise and shoot it from there.

There are many honest MOA milsurps out there. Many more own them than is first realised. If you're only shooting milsurp ammo, forget it.
There is another problem, not often discussed on this board. BEDDING. Lee Enfields, of all designs, suffer from it a lot. So do Mausers, though not as much and so do the Mosin Nagants, as well as almost every other wood stocked milsurp out there. Even the new in grease rifles will suffer from bedding problems.
Just like modern factory sporters, if you want MOA accuracy, you will have to work for it and tweak those rifles appropriately. That's where the conundrum exists. Do you mess with a desirable collectible or not?
 
Ryan500 said:
Okay guys, I'm looking for my next milsurp and I need to know some honest numbers. I know lots of people have a M44 that will shoot 1 MOA with silvertip but I don't seem to have that luck.:D

I've been looking at Mausers, what the most accurate in origional form and what can one expect for accuracy at say 100 yards with good handloads?

These are where i'm looking... What do you think of M96's 6.5x55? M38's 6.5x55? and Brazilians in .30-06? Isreali's in 7.62x51?

Thanks.
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I really like my Husky M38 - I've never had more than a couple boxes of 6.5 at any time so I've never been able to really get a feel for it like one of my Russians, but 2"-3" at 150m ('cause that's the minimum range @ our range).

I own 2x R/C K98s, one mis-matched 660 code vet bring back, and a Czech re-work, all in 8mm. They're more accurate than I am - I find the sight picture really difficult to deal with, especially in low light. Accuracy suffers unless I'm shooting off the bench. 3"-4" with Yugo surplus, 1.5"-3" with Federal blue box, again @ 150m.

It's not a Mauser but the BEST accuracy I've had out of any surplus rifle is out of my 1952 K31 shooting GP11. My heart broke when the lady @ the Shooting Edge told me there was no more to be had. That rifle runs like clockwork and shooting off my little pile of sand bags, I can make most of the holes touch on a good day.

I've never shot a 1" group with an M44 either.
 
Thats good guys, I understand the deal about open sights, i've been shooting for about 18 years and my first scope is less than 6 month old!

I would be more than happy with a swede or something that shoots 2 inch off the bench at 100 with my own handloads thats for sure.

I have a nagant now that i've messed with and honestly if i could take it all back I would. Just buy it and shoot it!

So maybe a M96 in 6.5 is the best you think? Or a K-31 if I could find one at a decent price?
 
I've always wanted to experiment with the 6.5x55 so I recently bought a M96fitted with the target front and rear aperture sights. This may be the best accuracy opportunity available in the MILSURP market right now. The 6.5 has an excellent reputation for accuracy. Aperture sights will always give an accuracy edge over the barleycorn sights.

Tradex has this variant in VG condition for $350. They also sell brass, dies, and bullets. I'm more than pleased with the condition of mine. Just need a .26 cal pilot for the case trimmer and some spare time to crank out some handloads.

I've also seen 2MOA or better accuracy with handloads in Garands, M1903s, M1917s, P14s, a M14, No4 LEs, a No1MkIII LE, and a Finnish M27 Nagant.
 
purple, most of those rifles have seen a lot of rounds down the bore. Of the half dozen or so I've seen, all have had washed throats. They will still shoot acceptably but I doubt they are exactly match grade anymore.
 
[QUOTE..... They will still shoot acceptably but I doubt they are exactly match grade anymore.[/QUOTE]

Niether am I.:redface: To steal a phrase from Forrest Gump, "Raffles is lak a box 'o chocklits. You never know how accurate they is 'til you shoot 'em".:eek:
 
Some nice looking swedes there, do you think if Trade ex claims very good bore that someone should be worried to much about wear and errosion?

I guess I should also keep in mind it's a 300 ish dollar rifle!

Just shopping around but I'm pretty sure I want a M96. Not sure about those target ones.
 
A very good friend and myself spent close to 25 years messing with old military rifles, trying to figure out just what we could get from them.

In good shape, we found that we could get 1 MOA out of most of them, although some needed a bit more work than others. But, hey! We were working with rifles anything from 50 years.... to a century.... old. Many of them we had to mess with but, in each case (and we glass-bedded a lot, too) all we were trying to do is bring the rifle back to what it SHOULD have been when built.

The EASIEST of the lot to make "sit-up-and-do-tricks" was the Swedish 96. The BEST tricks were done by a Norwegian Mauser 98 in .30-'06 which ended up with a 16x scope because it kept shootng 1-inch groups at 300 yards measured and we wanted to find out if that was fluke or a helluvva good rifle. It was a helluva good rifle.

Add a couple of slips of cigarette package and my Garand shoots under 1 MOA any time you like. We had a Moisin-Nagant getting 3-shot groups of 1.5 MOA, Summer and Winter for 4 years, but it did require a lot of messing-about (and .312" slugs) before we got it that good. One Lee-Enfield started out at 14 MOA and ended up at .5 for called 2-round groups from a dead-cold barrel. A Carcano Model 1941 was a lot easier and we got it to turn in 1-1/8" at 100 with cheap Remington 140 flatbase slugs: not even the special Carcano bullets, but then, a lot of 41s have very tight bores. Any time you can get a rifle that shoots like that, for $56, grab it! And we got a 4-shot 145-yard group, just over half an inch, out of the most miserable-looking Type 38 Arisaka you ever laid eyes on, once the oil had been drained and a HUNDRED dents steamed out of the wood. I am STILL trying to get my own ammo to shoot that well in it, but it likes Norma factory stuff and I can't afford to feed it a steady diet of pure gold!

But the easiest to get shooting was the Swede. We tried half a dozen of them and only one failed to come in at under 1 MOA.

So it can be done... but it is easiest with the 96... with handloads, of course.

.
 
Ryan500 said:
Some nice looking swedes there, do you think if Trade ex claims very good bore that someone should be worried to much about wear and errosion?

I guess I should also keep in mind it's a 300 ish dollar rifle!

Just shopping around but I'm pretty sure I want a M96. Not sure about those target ones.
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I don't have a set of 6.5mm bore gauges, but the bore on the one I got is bright and shiney with clean, distinct rifling. Looks good to me and I've looked down a lot of barrels.:)
 
I would tend to think that a reputable dealer like that means it when they say very good bore, so for 350 a guy could have a very good m96. With some target sights, not origional milsurp config but a very accurate shooting reasonable priced rifle.... might have to look into those.

Now what do you guys think of brazilian mausers in 30-06??
 
I've only seen positive comments on Tradex and have always been satisfied in my dealings with Anthony. I've bought various parts and accessories from him over the yrs and it was always OK.

I've never seen a really beat Swedish rifle in relation to other varieties of MILSURPs. I suppose that has a lot to do with the fact that the Swedes maintained their neutrality through both WW1 and WW2 and their rifles were lightly used in comparison to others.
 
Purple, you must have just about driven yourself and friend crazy getting some of those old milsurps to shoot 1moa on a steady basis. I'm glad you mentioned hand loads, because milsurp ammunition is a whole different ball game. You must have been able to cherry pick your rifles as well. Some at first, were as new but later imports and releases were another story, with worn bores and sloppy stocks. Some could be made to shoot and some couldn't. I certainly can't claim the success you've had.
Ryan500, keep in mind, that the match rifles at tradex were well used, all of them. I'm not saying they are worn out by any means and another bonus is the sights. They would cost well over a hundred dollars on the surplus market alone and on top of that, they are decent sights. Those rifles, may or may not shoot well. It's like playing the lottery. Those rifles, have a better chance of shooting well than a mass produced battle rifle. They may have started out as such but the Swedes took special care with those and made them up to shoot. They were used in both civilian and military competition with mostly government issued, match grade ammunition as well. I understand but don't know that they were also used in matches that allowed hand loads. The actions and sights, are worth $350 alone. The rest, is a bonus.
 
Many of the Swiss K31s were refurbished as late as the 1950s, including many with new barrel. The GP11 ammo was never corrosive. excellent chance of getting one with good to excellent throat. Seems it takes about 10,000 rounds of GP11 to severely affect it's throat, from our experience with Swiss rifle clubs.
 
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if your looking for a k31 at a good price try this link sharonsalter@eastlink.ca Igot one from them and was verry pleased with it its all orrigional matching blueing 90
% has the soldiers name that carried the rifle under the but plate 250 plus taxes and shiping check it out
 
The best shooting I've been able to do with an open sighted military surplus rifle is with my Swedish M-38, by far!

Others that I've shot that I'm comparing against are LE 1,3 and 5, Mauser 98, Yugo 24/47, P-14 and P-17, MN 91/30 and 44, Garand, SKS, Swedish Mk 42B.
 
bearhunter said:
Purple, you must have just about driven yourself and friend crazy getting some of those old milsurps to shoot 1moa on a steady basis. I'm glad you mentioned hand loads, because milsurp ammunition is a whole different ball game. You must have been able to cherry pick your rifles as well. Some at first, were as new but later imports and releases were another story, with worn bores and sloppy stocks. Some could be made to shoot and some couldn't. I certainly can't claim the success you've had.
Ryan500, keep in mind, that the match rifles at tradex were well used, all of them. I'm not saying they are worn out by any means and another bonus is the sights. They would cost well over a hundred dollars on the surplus market alone and on top of that, they are decent sights. Those rifles, may or may not shoot well. It's like playing the lottery. Those rifles, have a better chance of shooting well than a mass produced battle rifle. They may have started out as such but the Swedes took special care with those and made them up to shoot. They were used in both civilian and military competition with mostly government issued, match grade ammunition as well. I understand but don't know that they were also used in matches that allowed hand loads. The actions and sights, are worth $350 alone. The rest, is a bonus.
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I don't want to steal any of Smellie's thunder from post #11. I do my accuracy playing "solotaire" and have found it to be a great pastime. I shoot handloads pretty much exclusively to rule out the variables of MILSURP ammo and really enjoy getting the odd freakishly small group down in the .3" range. I put these ones down to the gods of random bullet dispersion rather than to any great skill on my part. Being an old soldier I like to keep my rifles is stock condition as they were issued. That rules out things like glass bedding and custom triggers. There is a lot to be gained from high quality handloads and things like correcting faulty bedding, cleaning up bores and muzzle crowns, adjusting fit, and some parts swapping to tighten things up. Good bench technique matters too.
 
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