Magpul Art of the Dynamic Handgun

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The BC doesn't have to be negligently dropped by the user, I have seen several self release due to wear or sudden shock to the rifle like bumping into objects or even swinging into the operator while slung.

I agree that the time and action required to remedy a short stroke is the same as that for a failed attempt at the BC. However, there is no cognitive thought required to use the CH if that is your primary method. If the BC failed you now have to cognitively think about how to remedy that, the answer is the CH. We're back to Hick's law, you're complicating the learning process and the execution process by introducing more options. This very issue is present in Art of the Carbine one(I cannot find my reference material for a specific time in the video) where a student experiences a stoppage, a type III. He clears the rifle, inserts a fresh magazine, then slaps at the BC and mounts the rifle. He gets the click, he pauses, then reaches for the CH. Had he always used the CH the second stoppage would never had occurred. Every time a magazine is inserted you run the CH. That belief and thought process saves time and effort. The link below is from Carbine II and it shows essentially the same issue(00.28-00.42). The EXPERIENCED shooter clears his double feed then attempts to use his BC to chamber a round. Not knowing that his bolt is not locked to the rear as he just finished clearing his stoppage. Again, had he simply trained to always run the CH after inserting a magazine it wouldn't matter whether he was clearing a type III or executing a reload, the result would be the same, a loaded rifle. Oddly enough, at the end of the video when Costa is explaining the remedial process, he uses the CH not the BC. Is that because he consciously thought about the position of the bolt due to his actions or is that because he knows it works by default. Either way, its the solution. If he had consciously thought about it, he's wasting mental resources on cognitive thought that should be second nature. As I said, the negative issues associated with the CH are the responsibility of the operator, making them something you can control. The failure of the BC to hold open is something you cannot control. I'll stick with actions I have a chance at controlling over those I don't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=losDuQ4FWGw

You are correct however in that what I prefer, practice, and preach is very easy for mass training. I don't see a downside to something that is easy to learn.

As for the transition between systems and across different platforms. Yes, the actual manual of arms will differ slightly based on design. The mental process and the gross function of each action is identical. Locating a CH is much easier than locating a BC on a foreign platform. Learning that new platform is greatly simplified by having to locate only three controls. Mag release, CH, and selector/safety. The rest is not important.

With lefties in mind, I see your point. The advantage of being left handed on the AR FOW is clear. The issue is that not everyone has long enough fingers or enough strength to execute a BC reload. If such a technique does not work for everyone(or very near everyone) then it becomes a specialized skill/tactic. A lefty who reloads with his trigger finger and the BC on an AR will struggle with any other platform. For those who hit the range or compete, that isn't much of an issue. For those who run the gun for a living, its a serious gamble.

A shooting buddy of mine is left handed and his first critique of anything new is whether or not it works for lefties. The majority of Magpul's teachings are not lefty friendly. Nor is what they teach platform friendly. They teach skills for right handed AR shooters. A lefty or an AK operator will not succeed with their methods.

TDC
 
With lefties in mind, I see your point. The advantage of being left handed on the AR FOW is clear. The issue is that not everyone has long enough fingers or enough strength to execute a BC reload. If such a technique does not work for everyone(or very near everyone) then it becomes a specialized skill/tactic. A lefty who reloads with his trigger finger and the BC on an AR will struggle with any other platform. For those who hit the range or compete, that isn't much of an issue. For those who run the gun for a living, its a serious gamble.

A shooting buddy of mine is left handed and his first critique of anything new is whether or not it works for lefties. The majority of Magpul's teachings are not lefty friendly. Nor is what they teach platform friendly. They teach skills for right handed AR shooters. A lefty or an AK operator will not succeed with their methods.

TDC

holy moly, now you are speaking for lefties too :confused:

I clearly do not either compete, nor do "run the gun for a living". I do however practice proper AR manipulation, and strive for speed.

Speaking as a real lefty, as opposed to you repeating your friend's critique of the unfairness of a right handed world, I find it more productive to learn these skills with the standard AR controls, therefore with the small exception of the ambi mag release, which I actually don't use, since should I ever have to "run the gun for a living", I may not be using my own pimped out ambi-everything AR but a stock right-handed controls version. AR manipulation examples (as they are not gospel, but a proposed system....) I have seen on Magpul DVDs work for me. I would be interested in seeing what "majority" of their teachings as you say do not work as a lefty....Of course, if you do it to the letter; for example, to rack the charging handle as you so dearly seem to support, I take my hand off of fire control in order to do so. Obviously the language used in the description of the drill on a Magpul video will indicate to do it with the support hand, which would be a tremendous pain in the ass since Eugene Stoner was clearly right handed....as opposed to me.

I can use the BC with my left trigger finger :dancingbanana: no way I am taking my hand up to rack the action on every mag change, considering that not only is that alot of work, but I have to take my hand off of fire control every time? I'm wondering who is not lefty friendly here....
 
holy moly, now you are speaking for lefties too :confused:

I clearly do not either compete, nor do "run the gun for a living". I do however practice proper AR manipulation, and strive for speed.

Speaking as a real lefty, as opposed to you repeating your friend's critique of the unfairness of a right handed world, I find it more productive to learn these skills with the standard AR controls, therefore with the small exception of the ambi mag release, which I actually don't use, since should I ever have to "run the gun for a living", I may not be using my own pimped out ambi-everything AR but a stock right-handed controls version. AR manipulation examples (as they are not gospel, but a proposed system....) I have seen on Magpul DVDs work for me. I would be interested in seeing what "majority" of their teachings as you say do not work as a lefty....Of course, if you do it to the letter; for example, to rack the charging handle as you so dearly seem to support, I take my hand off of fire control in order to do so. Obviously the language used in the description of the drill on a Magpul video will indicate to do it with the support hand, which would be a tremendous pain in the ass since Eugene Stoner was clearly right handed....as opposed to me.

I can use the BC with my left trigger finger :dancingbanana: no way I am taking my hand up to rack the action on every mag change, considering that not only is that alot of work, but I have to take my hand off of fire control every time? I'm wondering who is not lefty friendly here....

I'll explain it.

removing your dominant or fire control hand is something that should be avoided whenever possible. As a lefty, using your right hand to work the CH is very doable and is conducive to the reload process. Your right hand is releasing the spent magazine and retrieving the fresh one. With your right hand already off the gun, it make sense to use it to operate the CH. As I mentioned before, the use of the trigger finger to work the BC is a possibility, but it is not something everyone is capable of doing, nor does it work on all platforms. You mention your practice of not using an ambi mag release due to the possibility of running a rifle without one. This I applaud, working with a "standard" configuration offers the greatest cross rifle compatibility. So, if you won't run a lefty specific gun, why would your practice a right handed AR specific manual of arms?? Trigger finger manipulation of the BC works when firing from the left side, but what do you do for right side? Have you practiced firing your rifle from the support side? Why would you choose to learn two methods(one for dominant side one for support side) when there exists a method that works for both sides? Why would you choose a system that is ideally suited for the AR with a BC when there exists a system that works for all semi auto rifles regardless of BC placement or presence?? Why would you choose a system that does not closely mimic the manual of arms for a handgun and vise versa???

Observing the chamber

Doesn't work in the dark
Not possible on some systems(P90, FS2000, Tavor, AUG ,Type 97)

Bolt catch(use of)

Does not always lock bolt to rear
Does not exist on all systems (VZ/CZ, AK, Galil)
Located in different and difficult locations on some systems
Some move up, some down, some in/against the receiver
Not always an option based on location and/or shooter abilities(lefty or righty, strength, dexterity)
Not easily accessible on all handguns
Not present on all handguns (P7, Some Berettas, Keltec)
Not possible for lefties with handguns
Different sizes and locations on some handguns

I have to ask, if you don't run a gun for a living or compete, why would strive for speed? What other purpose is there to learning such a skill set?

TDC
 
I have to ask, if you don't run a gun for a living or compete, why would strive for speed? What other purpose is there to learning such a skill set?

TDC

why bother owning an AR at all? just because. I strive for speed only because it might be useful someday to know how to operate an AR properly and effectively. And neither you or Magpul are going to be 100% responsible for why I do it and how, since I see what I like and practice what works for me.

If I have to pick up an AK on the battlefield someday, unless I get to work one before I will probably be pretty slow with it, regardless of whether or not it has a bolt catch or not, right handed or left handed.

As well, I doubt that the folks that actually have lead coming uprange at them for a living bother to watch magpul videos, and it sounds that you are also too awesome to bother wasting time studying their system.

Incidentally, I don't use the slide release on a handgun, I rack the slide with the palm of my hand after feeding a new magazine. Why? Because I find it easier to do it that way. Clearly its two different things to learn on two different platforms. I don't lose any sleep over it.
 
why bother owning an AR at all? just because. I strive for speed only because it might be useful someday to know how to operate an AR properly and effectively. And neither you or Magpul are going to be 100% responsible for why I do it and how, since I see what I like and practice what works for me.

If I have to pick up an AK on the battlefield someday, unless I get to work one before I will probably be pretty slow with it, regardless of whether or not it has a bolt catch or not, right handed or left handed.

As well, I doubt that the folks that actually have lead coming uprange at them for a living bother to watch magpul videos, and it sounds that you are also too awesome to bother wasting time studying their system.

Incidentally, I don't use the slide release on a handgun, I rack the slide with the palm of my hand after feeding a new magazine. Why? Because I find it easier to do it that way. Clearly its two different things to learn on two different platforms. I don't lose any sleep over it.


There are a few reasons to own/practice certain skill sets with a firearm, I was curious as to what yours was seeing how you admitted you did not engage in two of them. What I don't understand is why or what determines a skill set that "you like" and how did you come to the conclusion that what you do(and like) with your AR is "proper manipulation" as this is the essence of the thread/discussion.

I would agree that a fair number of those who carry/use a firearm professionally don't watch the videos. In fact, I would say a fair number of said demographic have sought zero additional professional training apart from that received on the job. Does that validate or discredit Magpul or the vocational training? Not necessarily. What I do see, and based on your statement about the consumers of Magpul Dynamics products I'm sure you will agree, is that most who purchase it have never sought professional training either, and are not interested in learning a way, they believe they are learning THE way. Basing that belief on zero previous experience(s).

Your assumption regarding my knowledge base is flawed. I have indeed watched all of their videos, and in fact critiqued them(My Art of the Carbne review was promptly removed from CGN after posting, but I do have it saved if anyone wishes to have a copy Emailed to them). What I present as evidence against their methods is based on methods I use, methods I was taught by others in the industry, methods I cannot find fault with. As you mentioned above, if you were to run an AK battlefield pickup your performance would suffer due to insufficient exposure. Personally, mine would not. My manual of arms dictates that cycling the charge handle upon recover would ensure a loaded round and my research(pictures/articles) and hands on experience with AK's would allow me locate/operate the safety/selector and the mag release. No additional cognitive thought required.

Another question. Why do you find the slide on a pistol easier to use over the slide catch on a handgun? I'll throw out a wild guess(no really a guess) that because you're left handed you cannot access the slide catch without great difficulty, thus you're forced to use the slide. What make and model???

TDC
 
While I use the bolt release on the AR, I actually use the slide on the pistol because my thumb is too short to activate the slide stop:redface:
 
This is just getting incredibly tedious. At the end of the day, I can still choose to use the CH. I know which situations in which to use the BC. I have trained with both, and know how to default to CH with unfamiliar rifles.

Also, in the referenced video, the fact that he use the BC instead of the CH had nothing to do with the fact that he did not seat the magazine correctly.

And why is it not possible to chamber check on bullpups? I can pivot the Tavor on my shoulder and see right into the chamber. It sounds like you are putting down chamber checking entirely. Something that doesn't work 110% of the time = useless? Because that discounts your use of anything but iron sights. And firearms that don't jam. Oh wait.
 
I have to ask......

Really. You 'have' to ask. Why is that? What does it matter to you, except to feed your ego when you spout off about all your knowledge and experience (which is what by the way? Oh yes, a couple tactical response courses. Good for you.).


....what you do(and like) with your AR is "proper manipulation" as this is the essence of the thread/discussion.

The essence of this thread was "Magpul Art of the Dynamic Handgun". HANDGUN. In the pistols and revolvers forum. Maybe you missed that part.


This is just getting incredibly tedious.

Dude, you have no idea.....
 
Really. You 'have' to ask. Why is that? What does it matter to you, except to feed your ego when you spout off about all your knowledge and experience (which is what by the way? Oh yes, a couple tactical response courses. Good for you.).




The essence of this thread was "Magpul Art of the Dynamic Handgun". HANDGUN. In the pistols and revolvers forum. Maybe you missed that part.




Dude, you have no idea.....

In a way you are who TDC really wants to be! ;) Leave the poor guy alone and let him be you on the internet. :stirthepot2: :p
 
i think it was worth buying! they're very good at what they do, definitely learned something.

oh and that redhead.... and that juicy booty mmmm loved it
 
As you mentioned above, if you were to run an AK battlefield pickup your performance would suffer due to insufficient exposure. Personally, mine would not. My manual of arms dictates that cycling the charge handle upon recover would ensure a loaded round and my research(pictures/articles) and hands on experience with AK's would allow me locate/operate the safety/selector and the mag release. No additional cognitive thought required.

TDC

wow you are too much awesum :dancingbanana:

I have shot an AK, maybe a couple mags. I have a vague idea where the bolt handle is when I am on a cozy range, I can fiddle with the mag release when I look down and change magazines and reload. But as far as I remember, the bolt/cocking handle is on the right side, whereas the charging handle on the AR is on the top, and the release mechanism is actually on the left of all places. I don't see the similarity at all between the two other than the fact that there is backwards motion involved, once you actually grip the damn thing in your hand.

Without much practice on the AK, would I be able to feed magazines into it to save my skin at the same speed I can on my AR? Probably not, even if I was to standardize my "methods" as you suggest, simply because under duress I am pretty sure I will be also worried about not crapping my pants and running into a ditch to cower. If I have to go to a sandy place and face the possibility of using a AK, best believe I will pick one up as soon as I step off the plane and get myself a crash course.

So back to the essence of this thread, Magpul Handgun DVDs, I have watched them. I'm not taking in everything they suggest simply because it doesn't work as reliably for me, as I stated. I would not and will not take everything I read or see as THE way, from Magpul or otherwise, because that would simply be stupid. Whatever works for me, is what I practice. If its platform dependant, so be it.
 
In a way you are who TDC really wants to be! ;) Leave the poor guy alone and let him be you on the internet. :stirthepot2: :p

I really dislike experts with "ZERO" experience.

I wonder if he would be willing to buy my chest rig after tour.......for double the price so he can fit in at the range.
 
I am so overloaded by these fine points - I think I gonna do it the dumb way - run 10km and 100 chin ups to prepare for the ulitmate SHTF zombie resurrection.
 
if you were to run an AK battlefield pickup your performance would suffer due to insufficient exposure. Personally, mine would not.

AK battle field pick up???????? what kind of event are you expecting??????? hahahahahaha, Can anyone even point to a single time that our troops in Afghanistan have had to use a "battlefield pick up"?

If your thinking you will be using a rifle in any kind of domestic event think again. Even during the collapse of Argentina people did not walk the streets with rifles, now keeping a hand gun on you during civil unrest is another story.

this thread is giving me gecko45 flash backs...............
http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/
 
AK battle field pick up???????? what kind of event are you expecting??????? hahahahahaha, Can anyone even point to a single time that our troops in Afghanistan have had to use a "battlefield pick up"?

If your thinking you will be using a rifle in any kind of domestic event think again. Even during the collapse of Argentina people did not walk the streets with rifles, now keeping a hand gun on you during civil unrest is another story.

this thread is giving me gecko45 flash backs...............
http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

in fairness I am the one that interjected the battlefield pickup idea, not that I seriously consider it ever happening :p

I was only making a point that I know that my practice means are AR specific, and I don't really care that they are. :D
 
AK battle field pick up???????? what kind of event are you expecting??????? hahahahahaha, Can anyone even point to a single time that our troops in Afghanistan have had to use a "battlefield pick up"?

If your thinking you will be using a rifle in any kind of domestic event think again. Even during the collapse of Argentina people did not walk the streets with rifles, now keeping a hand gun on you during civil unrest is another story.

this thread is giving me gecko45 flash backs...............
http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

Hang on, you can say anything you want to each other, but leave Gecko45 out of this, that man is a real hero. :D

PS, just spent 15 minutes looking at every handgun I own, I've checked very carefully, not one of my "pistols and revolvers" has either a cocking handle OR a bolt release - are they broken??.
 
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