Magpul Art of the Dynamic Handgun

[Slavex]

Wait, what? Grabbing a large charging handle is NOT a fine motor skill? And according to you, fine motor control skills disappear under extreme stress?
Let's just take a quick look at what FMS are required to operate a firearm, grabbing a slide/charging handle, getting the support hand grip. Pressing or rotating safeties, press magazine release buttons, inserting mags and most of all the biggest fine motor control skill there is, pressing the trigger. We'll leave grasping the gun with our strong hand out, as it could fall into Gross motor control skills. Which are things like punching and hitting and grabbing clubs. Any time you need to grasp and manipulate its fine motor skills. So if fine motor skills go out the window as stated above, then you won't be able to do anything other than drool from a fetal position once the #### starts.
I'm not sure why, but I certainly will trust the knowledge and expertise of someone who has actually had real life exposure to shooting as opposed to someone who's only knowledge comes from the Internet and a few courses he's attended.

 

[CdnCombatMedic]

You do in fact see diminshed fine motor skills under extreme stress. Fingers seem to go the way of suasages lol

You are able to do things due to repition and practice of drills like shooting a gun.

 

[Slavex]

Of course skills diminish under stress. But to state that any of the skills used to operate a firearm are gross motor skills is false.

 

[CarbineOne]

I agree with Slavex; the very idea that hitting the paddle is 'wrong' is ridiculous. Look at the surface area of the paddle vs. a standard charging handle. People say 'oh you just ram your hand back there' but it isn't that simple. With heavy gloves it can be difficult to actually get a digit or blade of the hand inside the recess of the CH latch. When I speed load a magazine in an AR-15, I keep my thumb indexed on the rear of the mag, and I continue to run it past the magazine point up to the paddle.

Operating a firearm in and of itself is a fine motor skill. A goddamn reload is a fine motor skill.

 

[TDC]

I hear what you're saying Slavex, but there's more to the issue than just motor control. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and lump all control operations of a firearm into the fine motor skill group. That being the case, we are left with the effectiveness of the action as the deciding factor. Using the bolt catch is not 100% effective, nor are they present on all rifles, end of story.

Carbine one,

Your method of running your thumb up to meet the bolt catch during a reload is in itself efficient, however that skill set does not translate to any other platform, nor does it work for lefties or anyone else firing and reloading from the left side. That skill set becomes specialized and only applicable in certain situations. If you now have specific skill sets for several platforms and/or situations we again run into Hick's law, an exponential increase in the time required to decided on a proper course of action.

The effects of stress and Hick's Law an be seen at any competition/match. Those who do not have a mastery of reloads or immediate action drills are the ones that stop dead in their tracks when the pistol/rifle fails to fire. This is especially present if you see someone attempting a reload while moving. If their actions are not second nature, they will stop moving before completing the reload. The brain can only process so much at one time. As another example lets look at walking. We can all(well most of us) walk and talk on the phone without issue, not even thinking about walking, just the conversation. This is accomplished because walking is something we've been doing for practically our whole lives. The act of walking is second nature, similar to an autonomic function like your heart beating, or digestion. Now, try talking on the phone while doing the two step or a waltz. If you haven't completely mastered the dance, your brain is forced to limit its work load. Whether that be eliminating the conversation or the dance steps it will discard one of them.

Like Slavex, I've never experienced the stress and adrenaline of a gunfight, but you don't need a doctorate or the experience to understand that your brain is very busy with a million other thoughts and processes to complicate it with an addition cognitive thought process.

TDC

 

[Amazingkg3]

Magpul teaches a way, not the way, its good to get input from as many sources as possible and pick and choose what works for you.

Well said, people often forget this.

 

[Slavex]

There are two distinct schools of thought on runnimg your charging handle/slide everytime vs using the bolt/slide release. One says the first one works 100% of the time, is a little slower but again works 100% of the time (even if it doesn't actually work 100% let's pretend it does) the other camp says use the release, that's what its for. It is faster and works most of the time. When it doesn't you fall back to the other version. If that doesn't work, well now you're ####ed.
I'm of the camp that wants my gun, what ever it is, back in action the fastest way possible. If it fails, it fails, I'll deal with it. I believe the odds are in my favor more if I run the fastest version that may only fail occasionally. But that's me.

 

[Slavex]

The above is posted from my blackberry. So sorry foe any grammar or spelling mistakes.

 

[TDC]

There are two distinct schools of thought on runnimg your charging handle/slide everytime vs using the bolt/slide release. One says the first one works 100% of the time, is a little slower but again works 100% of the time (even if it doesn't actually work 100% let's pretend it does) the other camp says use the release, that's what its for. It is faster and works most of the time. When it doesn't you fall back to the other version. If that doesn't work, well now you're f**ked.
I'm of the camp that wants my gun, what ever it is, back in action the fastest way possible. If it fails, it fails, I'll deal with it. I believe the odds are in my favor more if I run the fastest version that may only fail occasionally. But that's me.

I hear you there too. The benefit I see in running the slower(albeit slightly) method that when executed properly works 100% of the time are this. First, it is less to learn less to forget and less to remember. The action is identical to loading the rifle as it is for type one and two malfunctions. The method works on all semi auto rifles(and handguns) regardless of whether or not they have a bolt catch(functioning properly or not). The use of restrictive clothing such as heavy gloves is less of an issue, as is operation during inclement weather. Running the CH/slide works for both right and left handed users as well as those with reduced strength. Although slightly slower, the time required to ensure proper function of the firearm is a fixed number. A 1.5 second reload with the CH will always be a 1.5 second reload. A 1 second reload with the bolt catch turns into a 5 second immediate action drill USING the CH/slide to correct. Banking on that 0.5 second time savings when the potential for the bolt catch to fail is 50/50 becomes a very risk choice.

Again, a fast method that fails occasionally is no longer fast or effective. The goal in reloading or malfunction clearing is to get the gun running, if the remedy isn't a remedy, its not solving the problem. One failed reload with the bolt catch could cost you the match or your life. If that half second is critical for survival, your tactics suck. On the flip side, if that half second is critical, then the 5 seconds it will take to correct a failed speed load will be terminal as well..Roll the dice, but I see more logic and value in something that works reliably 100% of the time.

TDC

ETA: Excellent grammar and spelling from a blackberry

 

[Slavex]

Problem is running the slide/ch isn't 100% it has a failure rate similar to using releases or catches. At least on any course or range I've been on. Properly trained and practiced, doing a remedial after something fails, is always going to be slower, but is so seldomly needed I wouldn't worry about.

 

[TDC]

Problem is running the slide/ch isn't 100% it has a failure rate similar to using releases or catches. At least on any course or range I've been on. Properly trained and practiced, doing a remedial after something fails, is always going to be slower, but is so seldomly needed I wouldn't worry about.

Most failures of immediate or remedial actions are attributed to the operator. Removing the human error, the act of cycling the charge handle properly is 100% effective in charging the rifle. A proper press or slap of the bolt catch does not guarantee it will charge the rifle, simply because the success or failure of using the bolt catch is dependent on the bolt position which is out of the operators control.

TDC

 

[CarbineOne]

Most failures of immediate or remedial actions are attributed to the operator. Removing the human error, the act of cycling the charge handle properly is 100% effective in charging the rifle. A proper press or slap of the bolt catch does not guarantee it will charge the rifle, simply because the success or failure of using the bolt catch is dependent on the bolt position which is out of the operators control.

TDC

Well there's the key word. Properly. I've seen many charging handles short stroke, whether due to gear issues, position, flexibility, etc. Short stroking a charging handle can lead to a slew of other malfunctions.

But on a bolt that is locked back, pressing the button works 100% of the time. If it is not locked back, and you did NOT check the chamber when you pulled the trigger and it did not go 'bang', you have another issue. Blindly tap rack and banging can, again, induce a slew of other malfunctions.

It's easier to perform an action when you know what your action is doing.

 

[twistedbrilliance]

I've got the Art of the dynamic carbine 1 & 2 and want the pistol and shotgun videos. Definitely a must have.

 

[Canadian_Eh]

Dynamic Handgun - Informative for this novice

I'm a novice and found the clear and focused material very straightforward and helpful. The content and filming style kept it interesting. Multiple cameras helped when watching repetitive sections. I practiced the grips, etc. while I watched, but the proof will be to apply it. As others have said, this is one tutor amongst hopefully many you will have as you continually learn.

I ordered locally to keep some $$$ in Canada. Got it from dstactical.com. Disc 1 (of 4) was very slightly scratched but it plays just fine. Will order from DS again.

 

[wicked_police]

....I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and lump all control operations of a firearm into the fine motor skill group.

Your statement, 'give you the benefit of the doubt' means you doubt Slavex's post. Look up some kinesiology and physiology about fine vs gross motor skills. You will then be able to take your arrogance out of the picture and realize that you will not be giving anyone the benefit of the doubt. You'll learn that Slavex is right, and you are wrong.

Removing the human error.....

Please tell us all how you do that. A human is operating the tool. There is no way to take human error out of the equation, no matter how skilled or practiced that human is. And no tool is free of possible or potential malfunction either.

Therefore, there is no reasonable way to say that one method is 100% effective, even when you throw the term 'properly' in there.


Yeah, great to have you back.

 

[D_]

Worth a watch for the little hottie they placed in the class. Sales move for sure.

These vids are entertainment for me only. Not as good as the Carbine 1, better than the Carbine 2, Aerial Operations is a bore other than the stuff in the Youtube clip they posted. Blueray Shotgun still in the mail.

 

[TDC]

Well there's the key word. Properly. I've seen many charging handles short stroke, whether due to gear issues, position, flexibility, etc. Short stroking a charging handle can lead to a slew of other malfunctions.

But on a bolt that is locked back, pressing the button works 100% of the time. If it is not locked back, and you did NOT check the chamber when you pulled the trigger and it did not go 'bang', you have another issue. Blindly tap rack and banging can, again, induce a slew of other malfunctions.

It's easier to perform an action when you know what your action is doing.

The bold is where the issue is. IF the bolt locks to the rear and the bolt catch is pressed it will charge the rifle. The charge handle will charge the rifle regardless of whether or not the bolt is locked to the rear.

Executing an immediate action of TAP TUG RACK could lead to a type three stoppage, the double feed, or a type one, failure to feed(due to short stroking) that's it. There is no "slew" of other problems it can induce. That being said, the bolt cycling under normal operation can cause the same stoppages, so its not limited to manual cycling of the charge handle. As was mentioned above, observing the chamber does not work on all rifles or in the dark, making it ineffective.

Your statement, 'give you the benefit of the doubt' means you doubt Slavex's post. Look up some kinesiology and physiology about fine vs gross motor skills. You will then be able to take your arrogance out of the picture and realize that you will not be giving anyone the benefit of the doubt. You'll learn that Slavex is right, and you are wrong.

Fine motor skills are described as those involving fine muscle movement, such as that of the fingers, usually in coordination with the eyes. I should clarify my previous posts, the loss of fine motor skills is not a complete phenomenon, ones fine motor skills(and gross motor skills to a degree) are diminished when under stress but not abscent.



Please tell us all how you do that. A human is operating the tool. There is no way to take human error out of the equation, no matter how skilled or practiced that human is. And no tool is free of possible or potential malfunction either.

Therefore, there is no reasonable way to say that one method is 100% effective, even when you throw the term 'properly' in there.


Yeah, great to have you back.

Again the bold section. The human error factor is present regardless of which method is being employed. If both sides of the equation have the same factors they can be eliminated for the purpose of discussion.

When discussing the CH and the BC as methods of charging the rifle, we are discussing them without the inevitable possibility of human error. On a pure MECHANICAL level, their functions are not equally reliable. The CH is only capable of one operation, charging the rifle. If all you did was retract the CH and release it, it will always charge the rifle. The BC on the other hand must first catch the bolt before it can be employed for its second task, charging the rifle. When you press the BC does it always charge the rifle??? NO. The secondary function of the BC is dependent on its primary function. Both functions of the BC are completely dependent on the CH. Without a CH there is no way to start the cycle, and the BC would then serve ZERO purpose.

TDC

 

[CarbineOne]

The bold is where the issue is. IF the bolt locks to the rear and the bolt catch is pressed it will charge the rifle. The charge handle will charge the rifle regardless of whether or not the bolt is locked to the rear.

Again, that is why I always, always teach people to LOOK at the chamber. Even if you can feel the bolt lock back through armour and heavy clothing, it STILL feels just like a double feed. The fact is, you pull trigger, you DON'T KNOW what the exact issue is unless you OBSERVE the stoppage.

You can also tell if the bolt is locked back by observing the bolt release. If it's flat, bolt is not locked back. Pretty simple. I've also had people put a dab of paint behind it for easy ID of a bolt lock. The charging handle will not always charge the rifle. If you double feed, it won't do s**t. If the round goes above the BCG, it won't do s**t. Again, blindly running the charging handle is not a solution. I'm not saying it is BAD to use the CH, I am saying there are advantages and disadvantages to each, and the advantages you advertise are not entirely true.

You also can't short stroke the bolt release. Once triggered, it's gone.

Executing an immediate action of TAP TUG RACK could lead to a type three stoppage, the double feed, or a type one, failure to feed(due to short stroking) that's it. There is no "slew" of other problems it can induce. That being said, the bolt cycling under normal operation can cause the same stoppages, so its not limited to manual cycling of the charge handle. As was mentioned above, observing the chamber does not work on all rifles or in the dark, making it ineffective.

Not observing the chamber is 0% effective, all the time. Observing the chamber is 80% effective, if you do 20% of your shooting in the dark, which I doubt most do, and if you do, why don't you have NVDs? Blindly running the charging handle is not the be all end all solution.

Again the bold section. The human error factor is present regardless of which method is being employed. If both sides of the equation have the same factors they can be eliminated for the purpose of discussion.

No, you can't just eliminate it. The motions are entirely different, and you cannot apply a binary response to the charging handle like you can on a bolt release. When you push the bolt release, TWO things will happen; 1) It drops the bolt home. 2) It does nothing.

Running a charging handle has a variety of responses; 1) It drops the bolt home. 2) It does nothing. 3) You do not properly actuate the charging handle fully to the rear, and you don't chamber the round. 4) You ride the charging handle on the return, it does not drop into battery fully, and you may cause a double feed if the first round does not properly eject.

I am not saying you are intentionally doing it, or it is done out of lack of training. Like I said earlier, gear issues, position, flexibility, etc. can affect the effectiveness of the charging handle. But if you can insert the magazine, you can actuate the bolt release.

When discussing the CH and the BC as methods of charging the rifle, we are discussing them without the inevitable possibility of human error. On a pure MECHANICAL level, their functions are not equally reliable. The CH is only capable of one operation, charging the rifle. If all you did was retract the CH and release it, it will always charge the rifle. The BC on the other hand must first catch the bolt before it can be employed for its second task, charging the rifle. When you press the BC does it always charge the rifle??? NO. The secondary function of the BC is dependent on its primary function. Both functions of the BC are completely dependent on the CH. Without a CH there is no way to start the cycle, and the BC would then serve ZERO purpose.

On a pure mechanical level, their functions are entirely and equally reliable. Without human error, their actions will be identical when releasing the bolt on a loaded magazine. The charging handle not only charges the rifle, but it is used to lock the bolt to the rear. The bolt release not only charges the rifle, but it is used to lock the bolt to the rear. The charging handle allows you to charge the rifle on a closed bolt, but introduces human error. The bolt release only allows you to charge the rifle on bolt lock, but is mechanically independent of human interference.

You are denouncing the bolt release as being situationally effective, while saying the charging handle isn't affected by situation or circumstance. This isn't possible. The charging handle doesn't always charge the rifle. The bolt release doesn't always release the bolt. Period.

At the end of the day, those that know how to use both have the option to use both. You can always ignore the BR if you want. Sometimes when I speed load I still hit the CH instead of the BR.

 

[TDC]

Valid points and I sense we're going in circles. I'll try and simplify the reasoning behind the CH over the BC.

I agree that the potential for human error with the CH is very much present, and is in fact a greater risk with the CH than the BC(think premature release). The real difference is in what you the operator are in control of. The operator has no control as to whether the bolt will or will not lock to the rear. Along with this comes the inability to control whether or not the BC will be effective in charging the rifle. The CH is always controlled by the operator, making its effectiveness 100% dependent on the operator. Short stroking is a training issue for the most part. Regardless, if you short stroke due to position or gear related issues you know that you short stroked it, you know that the failure was induced by your action, there is no mystery.

The other valuable reasons for running the CH are listed below, all of which the BC cannot take credit for.

CH on every semi auto rifle
Similar/identical manual of arms from platform to platform including handguns
Cycling the CH for an admin load is identical to a speed reload is identical to an IA and type I and II stoppages
Running the CH works for both right and left handed users
CH works in the dark, regardless of bolt position
Less to learn, less to forget, less to remember

I am in full agreement that it is always wise to understand both(or all) methods of achieving the same goal. More tools in the tool box never hurt.

TDC

 

[CarbineOne]

Valid points and I sense we're going in circles. I'll try and simplify the reasoning behind the CH over the BC.

I agree that the potential for human error with the CH is very much present, and is in fact a greater risk with the CH than the BC(think premature release). The real difference is in what you the operator are in control of. The operator has no control as to whether the bolt will or will not lock to the rear. Along with this comes the inability to control whether or not the BC will be effective in charging the rifle. The CH is always controlled by the operator, making its effectiveness 100% dependent on the operator. Short stroking is a training issue for the most part. Regardless, if you short stroke due to position or gear related issues you know that you short stroked it, you know that the failure was induced by your action, there is no mystery.

I've never seen anyone accidentally drop the BC (that is to say, drop it at the wrong time during a reload), but I have seen people go for CH's in non-existent positions (speed loading AR-15's, going for the AK CH... that wasn't there).

At the same time, if you do short stroke, and end up running the CH again, there is no difference in speed compared to somehow failing the BC, and THEN going for the CH. The option to use either is of greater benefit, while VERY few of those I have trained or trained with get overloaded by having to make the choice.

CH on every semi auto rifle

That is not in the same position with every rifle, negating the benefit. Many european and AK pattern rifles do not have a bolt release. This comes down to knowing a firearm, period.

Similar/identical manual of arms from platform to platform including handguns

Handgun cannot really be considered similar manual of arms... the process is the same, but the movements are still different. If you dilute the process enough, sure, every gun has a bolt/slide that can be manually actuated. But that is not even close to saying that every gun functions identically. Picking up a gun you are not familiar with will give you issues. This draws back to firearm fundamentals, if you can't identify a slide, charging handle, etc, then you have other issues.

Cycling the CH for an admin load is identical to a speed reload is identical to an IA and type I and II stoppages

Not identical, depending on how you do yours. I WATCH my rounds chamber in the admin load, and then press/brass check. In an emergency/speed load I hit the bolt release/CH and come right back up into firing.

Running the CH works for both right and left handed users

Platform dependent, and user dependent. When firing an AR-15 on my support hand, my trigger finger is long enough to reach the bolt catch, making a speed load almost faster lefty than righty!

CH works in the dark, regardless of bolt position

True.

Less to learn, less to forget, less to remember

Operating a rifle is an incredibly simple process. Once you teach the fundamentals (i.e. Firearms training in general), translating across to handguns, other rifles, etc. does not take much time or training.

Many of the points you bring up are better for training large groups i.e. Army. My interest lies in training the individual. I suspect therein lies many of the conflicting perspectives.