I need some handgun advice/input on this matter...

PaintballGuy

PaintballGuy

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Hey guys,

I've been out to the range several times now with my new Walther P99 in .40 S&W and for whatever reason I'm always grouping exactly 3in down and 2in to the right of where I'm aiming.

No amount of windage adjustments are improving this at all, and I even stepped my front blade to the lowest it will go to try and get these sights aligned. The really weird thing is, nothing changes and it's as if I never even made any adjustments! :( Even with the rear sights a good 5mm to the left of center!

It is not the gun. A good friend of mine shot it from the same distance and was making fist sized groups at 20 yards dead center. So why is it I'm grouping in a completely different spot? The only thing I can think of is that I'm left handed and therefore I'm using my left eye to line up the sights instead of my right.

*I'll also just add that although I'm new to handguns, I'm quite familiar with how iron sights work and the correct way to line them up. Just to make sure, I asked my buddy to draw what he sees before squeezing the trigger, and he was doing it the same and correct way I was.

Would someone be able to explain why this is happening to me?

Thankyou for your help!
 
PaintballGuy said:
Hey guys,

I've been out to the range several times now with my new Walther P99 in .40 S&W and for whatever reason I'm always grouping exactly 3in down and 2in to the right of where I'm aiming.

No amount of windage adjustments are improving this at all, and I even stepped my front blade to the lowest it will go to try and get these sights aligned. The really weird thing is, nothing changes and it's as if I never even made any adjustments! :( Even with the rear sights a good 5mm to the left of center!

It is not the gun. A good friend of mine shot it from the same distance and was making fist sized groups at 20 yards dead center. So why is it I'm grouping in a completely different spot? The only thing I can think of is that I'm left handed and therefore I'm using my left eye to line up the sights instead of my right.

*I'll also just add that although I'm new to handguns, I'm quite familiar with how iron sights work and the correct way to line them up. Just to make sure, I asked my buddy to draw what he sees before squeezing the trigger, and he was doing it the same and correct way I was.

Would someone be able to explain why this is happening to me?

Thankyou for your help!
Click to expand...





This may help you analyse your shooting habits, and perhaps work on correcting them.

Good luck!

http://www.marstar.ca/Analysis/index.shtm
 
What you are lacking is trigger control. You have to dry-fire (while watching your sight alignment on a target). Dry-fire will reveal any (unwanted, unintended) movement that you are imparting to the pistol.

Think of dry-fire as homework. You probably have had a teacher or professor tell you that you should be spending 2-3 hours of homework for every hour of class lecture. If you want to benefit the most from the lecture, you have to come to class well-prepared.

Dry-fire a lot.

Jeff Cooper's Defensive Pistolcraft Tape Series
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKgAkwB8WRo&feature=related

How to shoot a pistol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yohikhl9_c&feature=related

Jason Falla and Larry Vickers on tactical arms with the S&W M&P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAAT_66RFy0&feature=related

Beginner Shooting Tips w/ Il Ling New: Trigger Control
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLVjBq28A84
 
I'll offer this piece of advice. If you want to improve, seek professional training. Self diagnosis with little to no experience with handguns will result in failure. If you knew what you were doing wrong, you wouldn't do it, so its near impossible to self diagnose without first knowing and understanding the correct way to do it.

You don't know what you don't know.

You are correct in one respect, it is not the gun. A lower and right group is indicative of a flinch for a left handed shooter.

TDC
 
shoot more then aim more to the left up down ect.. sooner or later you hit the target :p
 
I am too a new pistol shooter and have little experience with a pistol. I find that almost everyone will tell me how to shoot differently. This got up to a point that I don't believe in everything that everyone tells me. So I too agree with seeking professional help will take care of everything fast. Although, like the other who advised to dry fire, I agree with them. If you notices that the front site is moving when pressing the trigger, you are doing something wrong.

Try reading some literature on the subject, or some DVDs on pistol marksmanship. I know that by reading on the subject and testing out the methods, I have become a better shot then before. What I did was just try everything that everyone have said and what I have read. Once I tried the methods I choose what's good for me. On one of my training manual said that everyone is different as in size, weight, muscle build and everything else. So there are few criteria on how to shoot well. Fulfill all those criteria and you will have holes at where you aimed.

Remember we shoot for fun and practical applications. So, I hope you won't stress over too much on not hitting the mark. Have fun shooting those paper!:D:shotgun:
 
Wendell said:
What you are lacking is trigger control. You have to dry-fire (while watching your sight alignment on a target). Dry-fire will reveal any (unwanted, unintended) movement that you are imparting to the pistol.
Click to expand...

+1. You are pulling the pistol down and right as you squeeze the trigger. This is extremely common with beginning handgun shooters. What you need to learn to do is move/squeeze only your trigger finger without it affecting the rest of your grip. It is harder to do than it seems. Lots of dry firing will get you to the point where you can squeeze the trigger without the pistol moving at all as the trigger breaks. At that point you will start hitting where the sights are pointing.

Mark
 
mmattockx said:
+1. You are pulling the pistol down and right as you squeeze the trigger. This is extremely common with beginning handgun shooters. What you need to learn to do is move/squeeze only your trigger finger without it affecting the rest of your grip. It is harder to do than it seems. Lots of dry firing will get you to the point where you can squeeze the trigger without the pistol moving at all as the trigger breaks. At that point you will start hitting where the sights are pointing.

Mark
Click to expand...

Spot on info.

Being a leftie your issue is a classic case of flinch and perhaps some "whole hand squeezing the trigger". You may not realize it but you're trying to fight the gun knowing that it's going to recoil. And it doesn't help that it's a .40 with the bigger kick to it. The fact that your buddy can punch through the center of a target with a nice tight group should be enough to suggest that the issue is with you and not the gun. You're far, far, far better off to fix YOU and leave the sights where they are supposed to be. That way you'll be able to eventually shoot any gun well and not just your gun with the grossly offset sights.

Some time spent with a .22 along with lots of dry fire practice is a good idea. For dry fire practice you should be able to balance a spent casing on the slide just behind the front sight and dry fire the gun a bunch of times without the casing falling off. If you're really good at this the casing will actually walk back along the slide in a straight line towards you due to the snap of the hammer. If it's a striker fired or single action gun you'll have to rack the slide for each dry fire so you won't see that happen. But I watched a guy with a DA/SA gun do this and it was quite a giggle.

Another great way to see for yourself that it's an issue is have a buddy load a snap cap in your magazine in a random spot. Then have him watch your gun and your hands as you hit the snap cap. LIkely your grip will tighten up and the muzzle will drop with the sudden build in hand tension as you try to fight the recoil. That's a fail. You need to work on isolating yourself from the expectation of the BANG! One way to do this is concentrate on pulling the trigger ALL the way and hold it against the rear stop for a moment. Your job is to hold the sights steady and slowly squeeze the trigger ALL the way back. At some point the gun will go BANG! but it should be a surprise and is secondary to you pulling the trigger smoothly all the way back and hold it against the rear stop for a moment.

Try this in dry firing first and then buy, beg, borrow or rent a .22 to work on the stable and steady hand grip just as Mark described with ONLY the trigger finger moving. I know it sounds corny but you need to "Zen" yourself out of reacting to the BANG! Concentrating on only the one finger moving and on pulling the trigger smoothly all the way helps with this. Doing it in dry firing drills is free and can only help. Try it with that spent casing trick. And the .22 is great because it actually gives you a small "BANG!" that you can more easily work on ignoring while developing your hand and trigger finger skills. Finally move back to the .40. And if you can have the .22 sitting alongside so you can go back and forth for a magazine of each to reset your inner peace and isolation between mags of .40 so much the better.

Also you don't need a death grip on the gun. A grip consistent with a firm handshake that isn't intent on setting dominance is just right. Too tight a grip and it becomes harder to isolate your trigger finger movement from the rest of the hand. Too loose and you won't support the gun well.
 
The snap cap in a live mag is great training advice, as long as your range will allow this practice, and not consider it a FTF. If your flinch is bad, you will even notice it yourself.

Another alternative to the snap caps is to balance a penny on the front sight. Pull the trigger without the penny falling off. Once you can do this easily, keep adding pennies until you have a good stack of them on top.
 
The advise given on shooting the .22 is almost the best advise. The .40 is in my option is a very poor gun to start with as they have quite a bit of recoil that beginners are not comfortable with. Also .22 ammo is a fraction of the cost of .40 ammo. Whenever I take new people shooting to the range all I let them use is a .22 It is amazing how good they get and how short a time it takes them. Just my two cents worth.

Graydog
 
The preceeding comments about trigger control and squeeze are right on the money--one other factor is the fit of the pistol in your hand and the effect of the position of your finger on the trigger. If your finger extends too far through it can affect your squeeze. try using the fleshy part of your first pad on the trigger instead of the first joint--it is sometimes easier to keep the pull straight back.
 
This is all excellent advice!

Thank you so much for all your input and wisdom on this subject. I'm going to definitely try dryfiring with pennies/shells on the slide to see if I can get rid of this flinch I most likely have.

I just can't really notice it being the shooter. So I will also see about getting an instructor to show me proper form as well.

I'll also probably end up getting a Ruger Mk2 or something along those lines. Everyone keeps telling me they're very nice accurate .22 pistols.

Thanks again!
 
At the range I belong to there is a chart posted that shows what you most likely doing wrong depending on where your shot lands. For left handed I am guessing it is reverse so that would be jerking or slpapping the trigger. This chart can be found online just can't remember where at the moment
 
Jerking or slapping the trigger You bet!
When I bring new handgun shooters to the range that have shot long-guns before, I tell them that the short barrel accentuates any mistakes induced by the shooter.

I make them repeat a mantra that helps them remember trigger control after they have mastered sight line up, handgrip & a comfortable shooter stance:

Straight back, straight back, straight back......

This seems to work for them.
So far every one of them has pretty good success @10 yards, putting new holes into the black of an NRA pistol target, at thier first time out.
 
blueblast said:
The snap cap in a live mag is great training advice, as long as your range will allow this practice, and not consider it a FTF. If your flinch is bad, you will even notice it yourself.

Another alternative to the snap caps is to balance a penny on the front sight. Pull the trigger without the penny falling off. Once you can do this easily, keep adding pennies until you have a good stack of them on top.
Click to expand...

Funniest thing is I was taught something similar with something on the front sight trick. I personally found that it works well as a starting point.

What Thumper167 is thinking is the wheel of misfortune. I also found this to be extremely helpful. With that I finally understand what is a tight grip on a pistol. I am extremely frustrated at how people can not describe the right grips on a pistol. I feel that it's something that once understand, it is not something to be remembered.:mad:

What others have said are right on the mark to me. Shooting is simple and everyone can be a good shots with the right instructions. :ar15:
 
Brutus said:
Jerking or slapping the trigger You bet!
When I bring new handgun shooters to the range that have shot long-guns before, I tell them that the short barrel accentuates any mistakes induced by the shooter.

I make them repeat a mantra that helps them remember trigger control after they have mastered sight line up, handgrip & a comfortable shooter stance:

Straight back, straight back, straight back......

This seems to work for them.
So far every one of them has pretty good success @10 yards, putting new holes into the black of an NRA pistol target, at thier first time out.
Click to expand...

About the trigger part for people who are used to rifle is very true to me. As I consider myself as a rifleman first then everything else. Before I learn to shoot a pistol, I have never learned how to squeeze a trigger right. I always thought I knew how to squeeze, but with a service pistol I have learned what is a bad trigger. Like most people who are used to a very light match triggers on a rifle, pistols are a real treat.

When I look at the front sight, I use it as guide on the path of travel for my trigger. I hope you remember what I have said about everyone have their own way to shoot. So try everything out, then select what to use. Using this method of trials and errors have worked out fine for me.
 
Paintballguy, I don't know if this is your first handgun, but it sounds like you have developed a decent flinch and have been offered some sound corrective advice. The only thing that I can add is that you have picked a heck of a pistol/caliber to perfect your shooting skills. IMHO this light polymer gun is very hard on the hands shooting 40 and I am not surprised you are having some difficulty. You might consider something a little heavier with a less abrubt recoil caliber before you develop some long term bad shooting"skills" which will likely lead to frustration with no matter what you shoot in the future.
 
mmattockx said:
+1. You are pulling the pistol down and right as you squeeze the trigger. This is extremely common with beginning handgun shooters. What you need to learn to do is move/squeeze only your trigger finger without it affecting the rest of your grip. It is harder to do than it seems. Lots of dry firing will get you to the point where you can squeeze the trigger without the pistol moving at all as the trigger breaks. At that point you will start hitting where the sights are pointing.

Mark
Click to expand...

Agreed, could be a dose of compensating for recoil and Anticipating the shot on top of what Mmattockx said.
 
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