Best Way To Get A 140gr .264 Bullet To ~3000fps?

I posted similar question on the Sniper'sHide web site in the states. I got some really good input and here is the summary:

1. The difference between the 260 Remington, and the 260 Remington AI, or the 6.5-08
AI is only going to gain you about 100-150 yards of distance at the very end of your trajectory. With those calibers, that is around 1500 yards. How much of your shooting will be at 1500 yards to justify the additional wear on the barrel's throat?
2. Brass preparation making a "wildcat" is quite time consuming for a very minor return in power. Is the limited return in distance VS all the extra time making, finding, fire-forming cases worth all that effort?
3. The "sweet spot" velocity wise for most of the 140-147 grain 6.5mm bullets seems to be around 2850-2975 fps (125 feet per second difference). If the best accuracy, barrel life, and overall performance comes at those velocities, is the small gain in velocity worth the reduced barrel life?

Accuracy is more important to me than velocity. After getting all the input, I changed my mind from cartridges like the 6.5x284, 6.5-08AI, to just the 260 Remington. I rarely get the chance to shoot over 1500 yards, so getting another 150 yards on that end just isn't worth all the trouble of making cases, and reduced barrel life.

But, if you are hunting at extreme distance, then you need to calculate how many foot pounds of energy you want at your chosen maximum distance. Most people's ethical max distance varies. I seriously doubt I would take a shot at any animal with any 6.5mm bullet much past 500 yards. And even that is highly unlikely.
 
Stainless steel doesn't really last a whole lot longer, if at all. I really doubt you would get 500 more rounds out of a stainless barrel than a chrome moly barrel. The biggest benefit I see to the Chrome moly barrels is in extreme cold...they seem to work better. But how often will you be shooting at 40F below zero?

I think a barrel maker would be the best one to answer this question though. When I asked Obermeyer and Kreiger, there didn't seem to be a huge difference though. I think stainless has a little more errosion resistance, but you still have the problem of all that hot gas in either barrel.

An old timer told me to look at every barrel as lasting through only X amount of gun powder. If you shoot mild loads, they last much longer than shooting really hot, top end loads. The other thing is you reach a point where it takes a tremendous amount more powder to get less and less of a velocity increase....till you run out of case capacity.
 
no one said:
Stainless steel doesn't really last a whole lot longer, if at all. I really doubt you would get 500 more rounds out of a stainless barrel than a chrome moly barrel. The biggest benefit I see to the Chrome moly barrels is in extreme cold...they seem to work better. But how often will you be shooting at 40F below zero?

I think a barrel maker would be the best one to answer this question though. When I asked Obermeyer and Kreiger, there didn't seem to be a huge difference though. I think stainless has a little more errosion resistance, but you still have the problem of all that hot gas in either barrel.

An old timer told me to look at every barrel as lasting through only X amount of gun powder. If you shoot mild loads, they last much longer than shooting really hot, top end loads. The other thing is you reach a point where it takes a tremendous amount more powder to get less and less of a velocity increase....till you run out of case capacity.
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Thanks.
:)I was told much the same. Thanks again.
 
Wow. I posted the question last night and went to bed without thinking I would have 23 posts when I checked in today.

I left a couple of things out of my initial post to avoid prejudicing the answers. This is for my main hunting rifle, not a target gun. Hence, the 24" barrel limit. For what and where I hunt, a 140gr Accubond at near 3000fps will cover at least 95% of my uses. I have a .338 Win Mag for the other 5%. I currently use a 6.5x55 for my medium game and it is a great calibre. So much so that I want to build a hot-rodded version to stretch up a bit to where the .338 is the better choice.


Leeper said:
It seems like about 2900 fps is where that point of deminishing returns is hit with 140 grain 6.5's.
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I suspected that might be the case, which is why I stipulated a 1500 round life for the barrel. I figure that will last me a long time in a hunting rifle, with no worries on accuracy loss in my lifetime. My kids can worry about re-barrelling at some point.

roberti11 said:
6.5-270WSM (Know as 6.5MM Rock), will get you easily to 3000 fps in a 24 inch bbl.

Brass is easily made from 270WSM, and Lee makes a die for this, it is a one step process.

Need 65gn of H1000 and you can get this at 56000 psi this is well under a max of 65000 psi.

Overbore index is 1340

Estimated useful bbl life is : 1278 rounds
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I was wondering about a wildcat based off the WSM brass. Any more info on the cartridge? Gunsmiths that have the reamer? Source for dies, besides Lee?

Perhaps my best choice will be a 6.5x55AI in a standard long action. More horsepower than my standard 6.5x55 (near 2900fps should do the job and the animals won't notice at all), good brass life and still pretty easy to work with on brass supply.

Thanks to all for the input, I will have to spend some more time reading through all the replies again and digest the pile of great info posted.

Mark
 
6.5x55AI = 6.5-06. Ditto the 6.5x57 AI. As to the 6.5 WSM, RCBS offers dies as well, and you will end up with a round that runs a shade under the 264 Win Mag. There's really no right answer here, all of these rounds will get you 2900-3000 fps, and all of them will give roughly 1200 rounds or so of barrel life. Pick the one that intrigues you most, or that you already have components for. - dan
 
I've had 140's go over 3000 FPS in a 264, but you start hitting serious pressure @ 3100 and the barrel is no going past 1000. You'll likely lose the target accuracy at 750.
That having been said, I had a pre-64 Model 70 in 264 with a 26" barrel, was a 1962 production I think, that would spit out 130 Accubonds that would chrony at 3300FPS and still shot accurately. Rough old gun with a really fast barrel.

JT
 
scottm said:
.260 Remington with Reloder 17 powder. Reports of 2980 fps with 139 Scenars
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in my 6.5-08 With 140 Bergers and 142 Sierras, I was able to break 3000 with RL 17.

Its group was roughly 4" at 120 meters.

I have tried that powder in ALOT of different cartridges because on paper and on the internet, it is quite a panacea. Throttled back to moderate velocities, it is as accurate as anything else but with poor load density. It does not shoot accurately at high velocity in anything I have tried, including 260, 6.5-284, 284 win, 6XC, 6-6.5X47, 6BR, nor a 308.
 
Obtunded said:
in my 6.5-08 With 140 Bergers and 142 Sierras, I was able to break 3000 with RL 17.

Its group was roughly 4" at 120 meters.

I have tried that powder in ALOT of different cartridges because on paper and on the internet, it is quite a panacea. Throttled back to moderate velocities, it is as accurate as anything else but with poor load density. It does not shoot accurately at high velocity in anything I have tried, including 260, 6.5-284, 284 win, 6XC, 6-6.5X47, 6BR, nor a 308.
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Thank's for that:D. Was just about to pick up a few #'s on the hype.
Will get more R22 and Varget instead:rockOn:, pretty much all I use these days.
 
Obtunded said:
in my 6.5-08 With 140 Bergers and 142 Sierras, I was able to break 3000 with RL 17.

Its group was roughly 4" at 120 meters.

I have tried that powder in ALOT of different cartridges because on paper and on the internet, it is quite a panacea. Throttled back to moderate velocities, it is as accurate as anything else but with poor load density. It does not shoot accurately at high velocity in anything I have tried, including 260, 6.5-284, 284 win, 6XC, 6-6.5X47, 6BR, nor a 308.
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Sorry you couldn't figure out how to run RL17. Others have:

http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/?p=5

"November 2009 Update!
I'm still shooting my original (2006) .260 Remington barrel on my AI-AW 2.0, and it's still performing great. I used the same gun, barrel, and cartridge to win matches in late Summer 2009 that I used in 2006 to win the Steel Safari. I gave back the Tubb gun in 6.5 Creedmoor (and its owner got rid of the 6.5 Creedmoor barrel), and I sold the 6.5x47 Lapua barrel for my AI-AW.

In the end, neither of these new upstart cartridges did anything for me that the .260 didn't. With the new Reloder 17 powder, I am now launching the 139gr Scenar at just over 2900 fps from my 26" Rock Creek barrel.
***********Some of my associates are shooting a load using this powder at 2980 fps; however, the large firing pin hole in my AI-AW does not allow this.*********"

I doubt they are settling for 3moa groups.
 
I consider myself rather meticulous and quite experienced with precision shooting load development. I will only speak on behalf of my own personal experience, but I am not alone. Many of the long range competitive shooters with whom I have discussed this have similar experiences.

Not all guns like all bullets or all powders; every rig is different, but I am defintely not sold on RL17.

YMMV
 
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It is very difficult to not favour a swede in a modern action. I've seen 140 SGK's go end on in a bull elk and not stop until they hit the hide on the other end. 120's will get you plenty of zip and still have better penetration than a good number of reliable .30 cal bullets. Accurate, low recoil, good barrel life and a consistent "make it dead now" record would make me pick the swede for ease of use.
 
Obtunded said:
Ballistics is where it falls apart. The 115 Berger and 115 DTAC in their non-pointed form only have G1BC's of about .550

The 140 Berger in 6.5 is above .610 and that makes a whole bunch of difference.

I completely agree with your argument as compared to the 6.5X47 Lapua, because the 130 6.5 Berger is about equal to the 6mm 115 berger.
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The newer DTACs only come pointed and have a G1 of around 0.595...
 
A couple of more thoughts. The longest barrel you can stand, the slowest burning powder that will work, and the slowest twist that will stabilize the bullets you intend to use will help the barrel last a LITTLE longer...though not very much longer..maybe a couple hundred rounds if you are really lucky.

In short, there is no magic cartridge. When getting that really high performance (over 2900 fps) barrel life drops of quite quickly. If you can live with the velocity of a 147 grain bullet at around 2900 (give or take 50 fps) your barrel life will improve quite a bit.

The thought that kept coming back to me was: Considering the expense of building a really nice rifle, is getting another 100-150 yards of distance at the end of the cartridges effective range worth reducing barrel life by 30% (2100 rounds to around 1400 rounds)? Especially considering how infrequently I would really be shooting at the very end of the rifles useful range? That is why I went from a hot rod cartridge back to a plain .260 Remington, or 6.5x55.
 
Johnny_Canuck said:
It is very difficult to not favour a swede in a modern action. I've seen 140 SGK's go end on in a bull elk and not stop until they hit the hide on the other end. 120's will get you plenty of zip and still have better penetration than a good number of reliable .30 cal bullets. Accurate, low recoil, good barrel life and a consistent "make it dead now" record would make me pick the swede for ease of use.
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What he said, it just works.
While I'm partial to the Swede and haven't owned any of the others I look at the WSM and think reduced magazine capaciy plus potential feeding issues, the 6.5-06 looks better to me but now you have to do custom brass...
Yup, the Swede would be it for me, but I'm thinking I could live with a sub 3000fps gun (and I have one...and a 338WM.)
 
Loving my custom .264WM playing with 129gr SST's right now going to try 140gr VLD's I have a 1-8ROT 26" SS tube....I'll update my .264 thread when my load development progresses and I get my chrono out.

Right now I'm getting all the pieces together for a 1-7ROT .22-250 build so load development will start when its ready so I can shoot one while the other is cooling down.
 
Mark,
I am also a proponent of the 6.5 caliber and your objective of 139,140,142 Grain bullets at 3000 FPS is a doable thing without going to a wildcat.
It sounded like this is to be a hunting build and not a competition rifle . Unless you are planning on hunting Varmints, 1500 rounds will take you through MANY seasons unlike some of us who can burn a barrel to non competitive status in one season.
Keep in mind that these shooters who say the barrel is dead , the barrel still retains enough "hunting" accuracy to last MANY more rounds and many more seasons.
Personally I've been shooting a 6.5 wildcat for a good number of years.It's a great little cartridge and I've had some successes with it. However as you stated ,keep it simple.

In it's simplest terms, I would recommend either the 6.5x55 or the 6.5x284 for your project. Great brass available,lots or proven load data and powder choices, easy to live with and will achieve your objectives for speed although as others have stated there seems to be a sweet spot speed around the 2950 for the 139140142 pills.
(if you get interested in going a "little" exotic, there's just a great list of semi wildcat and fullblown wildcats to keep you busy over the winter making brass.
If you treat your barrel well and don't abuse it like some of us do in competition,I would suggest that your 1500 rnd "life" should be surpassed with MANY seasons of hunting.
Half the fun I have found in building a rifle ,is doing the research ,compiling the parts and seeing it to fruition. The other half is shooting the bugger.
Have fun
Gord
 
I'm with Gord, except I am even less ambitious than him: 6.5X55 SE or plain old 260. The Swede is one classy round and it will do it all. 6.5-284's are for Americans that can buy match barrels for only $300. :D
 
As for the 6.5 /WSM Corlane's in Dawson Creek is building me one right now, they have reamers and have built a few with good success. Redding and RCBS make dies
 
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