Working man's .470 Nitro Express

[BigUglyMan]

I believe the .450/400 NE in the Ruger takes a .410" bullet. I looked at that too, and the chambering seems like an excellent choice - mild recoil and effective - but it is only available in the 1H, which is 9lbs.

That's why I suggested the 450 NE. Same rifle, same case (minus the shoulder) but a bigger hole down the barrel. Prophet River should have one or two in stock and could double check the weight on the 450NE "Elephant" special edition done for Lipsey's as it's no longer on the Ruger site. I thought about converting my #1H in 458 WM to 450 NE but there's little point now that I have a twin-tubed 470NE.

Boomer - what do you mean by: "There are other top PHs, but the PH banner is applied too loosely in my opinion"?

I think he was likely referring to the ubiquitous RSA PH. The standing joke is that anyone in RSA with 2 acres and a steenbok on it is a PH. I'd be nervous about a guy like that in the thick and scary. But someone who's been through the process to get a Zimbabwean PH license is the real deal. Lots of the old timers were with Zimbabwe Parks (or Rhodesia Parks) and did a lot fo control work. Anyone that can wade into a mixed herd of elephant and go to work killing everything that stands over 48" at the shoulder has a big set on him and quite likely a cool head else he would already be a greasy depression in the bush. Add to that some of the old timers spent time in the bush with the RLI during the war and you've got a recipe for a solid PH. I hunted with Ian Gibson of Chifuti Safaris this summer and I'd follow him into any situation. He lived in the bush for extended periods while with Parks and has enough time doing both jobs that his bona fide's are solid. Ditto for guys like Kevin Robertson, Andrew Dawson, and the other PHs I met while in Zimbabwe.

 

[Boomer]

Boomer - who would make your short list?

Such a list would be unfair because there are many more competent PHs than I have personal knowledge of, and many prestigious safari companies have a number of PHs on staff. The point was that when it comes to making your selection "Buyer Beware" needs to be considered. Having said that I would say that Mark Sullivan (Nitro Express Safaris - Tanzania), Robin Hurt, (Robin Hurt Safaris - Tanzania) Jeff Rann, (Rann Safaris - Botswana) and Ryan Wienand (Zuka Safaris - Tanzania) are my personal top choices at this time, although Tanzania and Botswana are both expensive to hunt.

 

[1899]

Such a list would be unfair because there are many more competent PHs than I have personal knowledge of, and many prestigious safari companies have a number of PHs on staff. The point was that when it comes to making your selection "Buyer Beware" needs to be considered. Having said that I would say that Mark Sullivan (Nitro Express Safaris - Tanzania), Robin Hurt, (Robin Hurt Safaris - Tanzania) Jeff Rann, (Rann Safaris - Botswana) and Ryan Wienand (Zuka Safaris - Tanzania) are my personal top choices at this time, although Tanzania and Botswana are both expensive to hunt.

It seems that most serious hunters tend to gravitate towards Tanzania and Botswana, is that due to the infrastructure of those two countries? What about Mozambique, Zambia and Namibia? They seem like interesting choices but you don't hear too much of those countries.

 

[BigUglyMan]

Honestly, Tanzania has a lot of allure from the old East Africa days. When the government jacked up the trophy fees and concession fees their industry started to shrink and is now mostly affordable only to those with extremely deep pockets. Botswana has huge elephant (both in size and weight of tusk but not the length of Tanzania) and great genetice for big-bossed buffalo. Not sure why it's so pricey (could be due to the large photo and eco-tourism industry making it harder for hunting safaris to afford to pay for the best concessions) but you can't argue with the facts. A 10 day Buff hunt with Jeff Rann will cost you $29K before you add any sundry trophies where my hunt in Zim with Chifuti ran $18K all in.

In my estimation, Mozambique isn't as popular as other destinations because it was very unstable for years in the past (done now) and the hunting can be harder in the coastal areas than in other countries. There is some great hunting there and the prices are generally better there than in Botswana. Last I heard JP Kleinhanns had lost his area to foreign investors but was running hunts in that area for that group. His website shows $14.5K for 10 days of buff hunting glory (with some exceptions). Good value but it ain't your daddy's bushveld!

Zambia is a bit of a wildcard to me - no experience with it but I've seen some people report good hunts there.

Namibia can have some great trophies for a reasonable price but the true DG areas are in the relatively small Caprivi Strip. Great Botswana genetics but there are only so many people outfitting hunts there and there are more human populations to worry about. Not quite as wild a place as you might find elsewhere but great hunting can be had. I had intended to hunt there with Vaughan Fulton but ended up going to Zim with Chifuti when I talked to them at the SCI show. Just got a better feel off those guys (wasn't blown away by Wendell Reich who sells hunts for Vaughan)

Zimbabwe is really the best buy in DG right now. I saw some stout elephant taken this summer (several over 50 lbs and one 66/65 monster that was likely only 35 years old!). Downside is that Canadians can't take their own firearms there. The Valley is full of buffalo and elephant (and lion - quote is being raised too!). Prices are pretty much the most reasonable in Africa right now and the hunt is a great experience.

RSA is a whole different kettle of fish. There is almost no buffalo to be hunted on "public" (as we know it) land. Buffalo herds have to be tested as disease free and are only one step away from being domestic cattle. Go there for common game, but look elsewhere for DG.

YMMV

 

[Boomer]

Good post BUM, but with respect to Canadians taking their guns to Zim, didn't Dogleg take his there?

Tanzania and Botswana are attractive in that they have stable governments and provide a true wilderness hunting experience; with the understanding that the term "stable government" means something different in the African context than it does in the western world. Zimbabwe has the wilderness but Mugabe is a dangerous despot, while hunting in RSA and Namibia is more like ranch hunting than wilderness hunting. I've heard good things about both Zambia and Mozambique, but I haven't looked into either of those destinations with any thoroughness.

 

[haha49]

Why so expensive?

Because a smaller faster round can get the same job done for way cheaper.. if you want uncommon stuff you got to be willing to pay..

 

[Boomer]

Aside from being factually incorrect, as frontal area has a much greater effect on wound volume than does velocity, your post doesn't actually answer the question. The NE cartridges are basically little more than outsized .45/70s. Although fewer rounds might be sold in any given month, there just isn't enough additional material in one of these cartridges to justify the prices being demanded. Clearly it is a case of charging whatever the market will bear and adding 20%.

 

[BigUglyMan]

Good post BUM, but with respect to Canadians taking their guns to Zim, didn't Dogleg take his there?

I believe the regs changed a few years ago, after Dogleg's trip. Obviously furhter than that there should be no discussion. Several other guys have recently hunted Zim. They're worth talking to.

 

[BigUglyMan]

Aside from being factually incorrect, as frontal area has a much greater effect on wound volume than does velocity, your post doesn't actually answer the question. The NE cartridges are basically little more than outsized .45/70s. Although fewer rounds might be sold in any given month, there just isn't enough additional material in one of these cartridges to justify the prices being demanded. Clearly it is a case of charging whatever the market will bear and adding 20%.

Partly correct. Remember that tooling isn't free and to gear up for something like the 470 is going to incur the same cost as tooling up for the 300 RCM. Only problem being that the 300 RCM will probably outsell the 470 NE 1000:1 for loaded ammunition. You can either wait 1000x as long to get your money back from the tooling investment or you can charge a premium to make up for it. Add to that the fact that there are only 3 manufacturers (that I can think of) making 470 ammo which reflects limited demand. And finally, when guys are torching ammo off in rifles costing around $10K each, obviously they can afford to pay more for ammo.

That said, Norma is screwing the bejeezus out of guys shooting the NE cartridges. $230 for a box of 10 rounds of Norma ammo...WTF? ATK (Federal) is only partly screwing us at $244/20. Hornady seems reasonable sellign it to us for $140/20. Suddenly the handloading cost seems liek a helluva bargain!

 

[1899]

...Ryan Wienand (Zuka Safaris - Tanzania) ...

Sad news - just published:

PH Anton Turner of Zuka Safaris was killed, while PH Nigel Archer of Miombo Safaris is recovering from his close encounter. Turner was killed in late October by a cow elephant while he was escorting a group of BBC journalists in the Udzungwa Mountains on the northern fringe of the Kilombero escarpment. They were filming an episode of an 11-part series called Serious Explorers, in which a group of children follow in the footsteps of David Living- stone. Three children apparently witnessed the attack. Word is the elephant was unprovoked. Turner supposedly got off a shot but was unable to stop the elephant, which proceeded to stomp and gore him to death. The children and film crew were unharmed. The BBC reportedly has cancelled the production of Serious Explorers. I tried contacting Zuka Safaris for more information, but had not heard back from them at press time.

 

[Boomer]

Sad news indeed, I hadn't met Anton but I knew of him. Who knows just what irritates an elephant? They hold grudges and an elephant calf that survives a cull and subsequently reaches adulthood, can be very dangerous to humans. I'm not saying that was the case here, but it is one of many possibilities. It would have been more accurate to say the reason for the attack is unknown, rather than saying the attack was unprovoked. Through personal experience I discovered that a confrontation with a belligerent elephant is a heart stopping event. Our friend Chris Hattie is no longer with Zuka, so I doubt if I'll be able to get the inside scoop. Needless to say those kids are alive through Anton's sacrifice. Too bad BBC chose to cancel the project, as such things do happen in the real Africa, even if they are at odds with the Disney version.