I'm waiting for this one, the Taurus Tactical Operator.
I'd leave my Credit card for one of those....Wait...needs to be 4.2" LOL
***this is the heat!!******
- Thread starter TDC
- Start date
I'd leave my Credit card for one of those....Wait...needs to be 4.2" LOL
While I hate to give him any credit, that is very true.
But at the same time, when he has no experience in any related field (except a couple courses, yay), and doesn't take part in competition because the rules make no sense for real world applications (what real world is he talking about anyway, he doesn't legally carry a gun when he's out and about in the 'real world'), he is in no position to call out established experts or professionals, or critique their skills or methods.
And having a single cheerleader chiming in for his cause by crying about respect, well, that doesn't help much when you consider who the cheerleader is.
So I guess for the CGN members who have neither MIL or LE experience or any training under their belts, their opinions are worthless and they know nothing of the discipline(s) they participate. Is this correct?
As for the topic at hand. I still don't see anyone willing to discuss or debate what I've posted with regards to revolvers or this particular make/model.
TDC
As for the topic at hand. I still don't see anyone willing to discuss or debate what I've posted with regards to revolvers or this particular make/model.
TDC
opinions are always welcome, as is discussion. However when someone starts making comments about "reality" or "real world" actions, when they have no knowledge of those things (and I'm talking about using a gun for survival, defense or offense), why would anyone take them seriously? especially when this same person then argues with people who DO know better, who DO have experience in such matters, and who ARE respected by their peers.
the pistol in question in your first post from 3 years ago was done up by SMGLee as a joke. the subsequent revolvers pictured here however (at least most of them) are suited for their intended purposes. Lets just examine one, and we'll use "real world" as our basis. Revolvers don't leave brass behind, this can be important in certain situations, be you a SOF or hitman (I suppose, not that I am either, but so I've been told and so I've read, however I admit to not being an SME on these subjects, I'll just trust that the US Navy had a small idea about they are talking about). A skilled user of a revolver can in fact keep up with a modern semi auto, and you'll find that in competitions across the world. Certainly there are things about a revolver that makes them more difficult to use for the lay user, but again, training, training, training, will sort that out. Reloads with one hand aren't really any more difficult than with a semi (revolver model dependent), nor is operation, again, training. Due to their fixed barrel, revolvers are usually more accurate than a semi auto as well, although most shooters will never be able to tell the difference.
the pistol in question in your first post from 3 years ago was done up by SMGLee as a joke. the subsequent revolvers pictured here however (at least most of them) are suited for their intended purposes. Lets just examine one, and we'll use "real world" as our basis. Revolvers don't leave brass behind, this can be important in certain situations, be you a SOF or hitman (I suppose, not that I am either, but so I've been told and so I've read, however I admit to not being an SME on these subjects, I'll just trust that the US Navy had a small idea about they are talking about). A skilled user of a revolver can in fact keep up with a modern semi auto, and you'll find that in competitions across the world. Certainly there are things about a revolver that makes them more difficult to use for the lay user, but again, training, training, training, will sort that out. Reloads with one hand aren't really any more difficult than with a semi (revolver model dependent), nor is operation, again, training. Due to their fixed barrel, revolvers are usually more accurate than a semi auto as well, although most shooters will never be able to tell the difference.
A good use for a tac'd-up revolver? The entry guy on a SWAT team that's holding a breaching shield. Sticking a semi-auto around the bend of a bit of steel and polycarbonate is a recipe for failures-to-eject. Revolvers don't have that problem, do they?
good point, I've actually seen that happen a bunch of times at training days. Either from "limp wristing" due to the awkwardness of reaching around the shield, or from the slide hanging up on the shield during firing.
- Location
- Western BC
I bought one because it reminds me of a modern Webley-scott. I like the weight and feel and the reliability of the r8. This one is a great shooter, 1.5" at 25 yards. I can reload it like Jerry Muciluk. 
. Of all things though it is the feel of the frame, sight picture and build quality that attracted me most. It is nice. Paid $1400 + 12% and shipping and at that price, I know a lot of you guys aren't going to own one. .
. Of all things though it is the feel of the frame, sight picture and build quality that attracted me most. It is nice. Paid $1400 + 12% and shipping and at that price, I know a lot of you guys aren't going to own one. . Just because this bugging me sooo much...TDC who the heck are you? I'm not calling you out or anything but why do you insist on carrying on so much? I have taken great offense to many of statements that you have made. I would really like to know what training you have actually taken? What experience you actually have? Not a shot at you but it may help to change the perspective I have regarding some of your statements. I know that you have conflict with some members on this board and I'm trying to keep an open mind here but your statements do make it hard at times. Did you really steal from TSE? What's the deal with that? Just looking for anything here to understand where you are coming from.
Regards, Eric
Regards, Eric
Hokus Grey
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Somewhere between "WTF?" and "FTW!".
I'm pretty sure his whole purpose in life is to give anyone who is serving something to talk about with their colleagues.
TDC, funny enough after you again try to pass on your pearls of wisdom and condensation, I find your ass has already been handed to you here, so you tried to bounce to a "New Guy" to get your Dopamine fix for the night.
TDC, what exactly is your issue with LEO/MIL, because it seems that any time we post anything related to our professions, you turn it into an opportunity to try to usurp, "school", and other wise talk down to us with your "vast" amount, of what seems to be non-real world, non-applied, technical and theoretical knowledge? In all the dealings I've had with you, which, not inclusive of this, are now 2. It seems to me you're looking for a fight or an opportunity to lord yourself over us by throwing ballistics tables, or facts on penetration of ballistic protective vests, using big words which I'm sure you are just aching for a chance to string into a sentence to further condescend, and otherwise talk down to professionals, which clearly you are not.
Honestly, reading you is like listening to a f**king Star Wars geek coming aboard and critiquing a Trekkie because Capt Kirk has a penchant for banging Alien pussy, while you jerk yourself off to the idea of you being Luke Skywalker and banging Princess Leia- "if only she would look at me!". In the way you call down and ignore our experience of firearms experience, is the same way this geek ignores that Kirk has banged copious amounts of pussy, and who gives a s**t if its blue, green or f**king rainbow coloured, its god damn pussy!!!
And in case you've lost me, I'm calling you the sister kissing wannabe who would rather roll their eyes and point the finger at those that do the job rather than get yourself laid legitimately- ie. you don't have the balls to sign on a line, put on a uniform and maybe put your firearms experience to some practical use. And we, the professionals, are the James T. Kirks of the world, banging copious amounts of alien pussy, in that we apply our firearms knowledge. We do it.
With supped up competition pistols, you shoot at paper and tin targets with goal of... well shooting at more paper and tin targets. With issue and service weapons, we shoot at those same paper and tin targets, but with the goal of putting down a threat by shooting at centre of mass, which requires training something else- the mindset that will allow us to let loose the death sentence that is going hit that mother ****** twice in the chest, and once in the head for good measure, all the while playing by the biggest rule changer of all- incoming fire, from a single small arms weapon, RPG or well executed ambush, that would make most ordinary men piss and s**t their pants and while worrying about wiping their ass, making them incapable of comprehending the most primal instinct to kill what is trying to kill you. And I'm guessing you fall into this category! That, is practical application. Sport shooting in a league you belong to, is an interpretation of this. And make no mistake, I respect sport shooters. Some of my best friends do both what I do, and what you do.
Simple questions beg simple answers. Not sentences and paragraphs of diatribe pertaining to science and data that overcomplicate what someone is truly looking for. We see what works, and what doesn't. We use what works, and if it doesn't change it or make due in the hopes of one day making it better- to innovate. We have the experience, either under fire, delivering fire effects, or in being prepared to do both.
So, you have no basis to call down our experience, whether we've posted 4000 times, or once. Much like I have no business schooling anyone on fat mag welled, compensated sport pistols- I don't use them. And yes, this is a Newbie, calling you out.
Recognize the fact that the intended and sole purpose of firearms are to do someone harm, that would otherwise do them harm. Any thing else is ancilliary and theoretical to its use, and though I respect the dedication and application of accurate and fast fire in training, which includes IPSC, IDPA, Tactical Courses and the like (Power to ya'!), it's not the intended use of a firearm. Period.
You talk s**t about Clerks and Supply duty, and though they may not have the firearms or ballistics experiences that you think you do, here is the difference between them and you. They, unlike you, use their spine, to get their ass and body out of bed every morning, drunk or fat, and put on a uniform to serve a greater purpose than themselves. To support us at the pointy end, so that we may be fed, paid, and supplied so we can do our job. But most of all, to serve their country, which is something I think is lost on you. How dare you call them down. I need them working in their profession, as much as they need me to provide the security so they can do it. One-Big-Team. You, use yours (spine), to hunch over a computer and look for any excuse to extend your discontent for us.
Is your issue with LEO/MIL and your incessant need to brow beat us, based on that you couldn't make the cut? Were you too out of shape, had a medical issue, a psych issue, or simply a smarts issue that you couldn't even get recruited as a cook? Which is it.
Are you a thief? Perhaps you should clear this up for us. What exactly happened 6 years ago at The Shooting Edge, a sponsoring company of this forum, whom the owner of said store is also a proud retired CF member, that would cause you to have not stepped foot in to again? What does JR know about you, that though I'm sure he holds much insight, he is against divulging such information in that he took the high road, but it would surely draw a one hell of a light onto you by a panel of your "peers"?
I am here to learn, from the shooting professional, competitor, hobbyist, enthusiast and the like. To soak up what is useful to me, to enter into productive and concise conversation in the hopes to broaden my knowledge base, and to perhaps share what has worked, and what hasn't for me in the hopes that I may add to the ENTIRE firearms community, which includes making sure those that would do me, my family, or my countrymen harm are prevented from it. Not to post simply to raise my post count to the thousands (god willing, I'll never get that high so that I convert from doing the things I love, to talking purely talking about them), and remind people of it directly or indirectly. I'm sure this is the intent of most members on here. From what I read from what you've put here, you are here to purely lecture, to take nothing in, and force your knowledge, and though you may be this (knowledgeable), your conveyance of such knowledge, is s**t. And this, I can professionally speak to as to critique you on. What productiveness is this you offer? None.
You've been talked to by our kind, and your own, reminded, and both have put you in your place. I have otherwise been kind, and even jovial with you up until now, but you have belittled me, us and other wise picked a bone with a brotherhood that have each other's back at any given point, convenient or not, and that is stronger than anything you will ever experience,
You offend me. You offend those of us that serve.
We are professionals. We are Warriors for those who do not want to, or cannot serve a higher purpose.
What purpose do you serve?
My life for you.
Airborne.
TDC, what exactly is your issue with LEO/MIL, because it seems that any time we post anything related to our professions, you turn it into an opportunity to try to usurp, "school", and other wise talk down to us with your "vast" amount, of what seems to be non-real world, non-applied, technical and theoretical knowledge? In all the dealings I've had with you, which, not inclusive of this, are now 2. It seems to me you're looking for a fight or an opportunity to lord yourself over us by throwing ballistics tables, or facts on penetration of ballistic protective vests, using big words which I'm sure you are just aching for a chance to string into a sentence to further condescend, and otherwise talk down to professionals, which clearly you are not.
Honestly, reading you is like listening to a f**king Star Wars geek coming aboard and critiquing a Trekkie because Capt Kirk has a penchant for banging Alien pussy, while you jerk yourself off to the idea of you being Luke Skywalker and banging Princess Leia- "if only she would look at me!". In the way you call down and ignore our experience of firearms experience, is the same way this geek ignores that Kirk has banged copious amounts of pussy, and who gives a s**t if its blue, green or f**king rainbow coloured, its god damn pussy!!!
And in case you've lost me, I'm calling you the sister kissing wannabe who would rather roll their eyes and point the finger at those that do the job rather than get yourself laid legitimately- ie. you don't have the balls to sign on a line, put on a uniform and maybe put your firearms experience to some practical use. And we, the professionals, are the James T. Kirks of the world, banging copious amounts of alien pussy, in that we apply our firearms knowledge. We do it.
With supped up competition pistols, you shoot at paper and tin targets with goal of... well shooting at more paper and tin targets. With issue and service weapons, we shoot at those same paper and tin targets, but with the goal of putting down a threat by shooting at centre of mass, which requires training something else- the mindset that will allow us to let loose the death sentence that is going hit that mother ****** twice in the chest, and once in the head for good measure, all the while playing by the biggest rule changer of all- incoming fire, from a single small arms weapon, RPG or well executed ambush, that would make most ordinary men piss and s**t their pants and while worrying about wiping their ass, making them incapable of comprehending the most primal instinct to kill what is trying to kill you. And I'm guessing you fall into this category! That, is practical application. Sport shooting in a league you belong to, is an interpretation of this. And make no mistake, I respect sport shooters. Some of my best friends do both what I do, and what you do.
Simple questions beg simple answers. Not sentences and paragraphs of diatribe pertaining to science and data that overcomplicate what someone is truly looking for. We see what works, and what doesn't. We use what works, and if it doesn't change it or make due in the hopes of one day making it better- to innovate. We have the experience, either under fire, delivering fire effects, or in being prepared to do both.
So, you have no basis to call down our experience, whether we've posted 4000 times, or once. Much like I have no business schooling anyone on fat mag welled, compensated sport pistols- I don't use them. And yes, this is a Newbie, calling you out.
Recognize the fact that the intended and sole purpose of firearms are to do someone harm, that would otherwise do them harm. Any thing else is ancilliary and theoretical to its use, and though I respect the dedication and application of accurate and fast fire in training, which includes IPSC, IDPA, Tactical Courses and the like (Power to ya'!), it's not the intended use of a firearm. Period.
You talk s**t about Clerks and Supply duty, and though they may not have the firearms or ballistics experiences that you think you do, here is the difference between them and you. They, unlike you, use their spine, to get their ass and body out of bed every morning, drunk or fat, and put on a uniform to serve a greater purpose than themselves. To support us at the pointy end, so that we may be fed, paid, and supplied so we can do our job. But most of all, to serve their country, which is something I think is lost on you. How dare you call them down. I need them working in their profession, as much as they need me to provide the security so they can do it. One-Big-Team. You, use yours (spine), to hunch over a computer and look for any excuse to extend your discontent for us.
Is your issue with LEO/MIL and your incessant need to brow beat us, based on that you couldn't make the cut? Were you too out of shape, had a medical issue, a psych issue, or simply a smarts issue that you couldn't even get recruited as a cook? Which is it.
Are you a thief? Perhaps you should clear this up for us. What exactly happened 6 years ago at The Shooting Edge, a sponsoring company of this forum, whom the owner of said store is also a proud retired CF member, that would cause you to have not stepped foot in to again? What does JR know about you, that though I'm sure he holds much insight, he is against divulging such information in that he took the high road, but it would surely draw a one hell of a light onto you by a panel of your "peers"?
I am here to learn, from the shooting professional, competitor, hobbyist, enthusiast and the like. To soak up what is useful to me, to enter into productive and concise conversation in the hopes to broaden my knowledge base, and to perhaps share what has worked, and what hasn't for me in the hopes that I may add to the ENTIRE firearms community, which includes making sure those that would do me, my family, or my countrymen harm are prevented from it. Not to post simply to raise my post count to the thousands (god willing, I'll never get that high so that I convert from doing the things I love, to talking purely talking about them), and remind people of it directly or indirectly. I'm sure this is the intent of most members on here. From what I read from what you've put here, you are here to purely lecture, to take nothing in, and force your knowledge, and though you may be this (knowledgeable), your conveyance of such knowledge, is s**t. And this, I can professionally speak to as to critique you on. What productiveness is this you offer? None.
You've been talked to by our kind, and your own, reminded, and both have put you in your place. I have otherwise been kind, and even jovial with you up until now, but you have belittled me, us and other wise picked a bone with a brotherhood that have each other's back at any given point, convenient or not, and that is stronger than anything you will ever experience,
You offend me. You offend those of us that serve.
We are professionals. We are Warriors for those who do not want to, or cannot serve a higher purpose.
What purpose do you serve?
My life for you.
Airborne.
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Great Rant, I give it a 10/10.... to clarify thought TDC does not compete in ANY organized sport, IDPA/IPSC or even 3 Gun according to him... he feels the rules are not realistic and he can't function is such an enviroment, so please don't compare him with people that actually participate in the shooting sports in Canada.
also of note and please everyone remember this, IDPA/IPSC and any organized Usage of your handguns in a sporting maner is one of the reasons we can still legally own firearms, sure look down at sport shooters but also realize that without that "sporting" purpose to own handguns we would be melting them all down.
- Location
- Ottawa, Ontario
Lets discuss "serious work" for a minute. This revolver is marketed as part of Smith and Wesson's "Military and Police" line of products. One could only surmise that with such a target market, the product best be designed or at least geared towards hard use with a focus on reliability.
Eight rounds is pathetic. I'm sure we all know that shot placement is the critical component so the "eight rounds of .357 is superior to ..." argument is out.
Optics on a handgun is best left to the gamers
Your assessment is not correct in this regard, this revolver came about as request from a police agency, this agency had a desire for handgun that could be used as a shield gun by the entry team, having recently set a pistol up for demo and use by police and military - read Glock 17 with a Micro Aimpoint, it was very well received for use as a shield gun and other tasks.
Operating a wheel gun with one hand is a chore. Reloads aren't fast. You can't top up a wheel gun in a hurry, no tactical reload. Single loading rounds could result in several empty chambers before finding the live ones. There is no tell or sign that you've fired all rounds unless you open the cylinder and check or the gun fails to fire(which could be a bad primer as well).
Again this shows your lack of knowledge in the area of police work, the person with the shield would not reload but drop and transition to another identical revolver, referred to as the New York reload pioneered by Jim Cirillo.If you actually spent any time behind a shield you would also see how effective the revolver is in this area, since you do not have to worry about slide impacting the shield when the pistol is fired, less likelyhood of a malfunction.
I can see the revolver is well suited for "serious work". With all the user friendly attributes above, I can't see any intelligent agency/dept./unit not immediately ordering these by the truck load.
Another case of lack of knowledge regarding revolvers, what if I informed you that GIGN Groupe d'Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale), is the French National Gendarmerie's elite Special Operations counter-terrorism and hostage rescue unit, they still use the the Manurhin MR73 revolver for depolyment. If that were not enough GSG9 - Grenzschutzgruppe 9 or Border Guard Group 9 in Germany utilized revolvers for many years, including scoped S&W M29 revolvers.
gadget
Eight rounds is pathetic. I'm sure we all know that shot placement is the critical component so the "eight rounds of .357 is superior to ..." argument is out.
Optics on a handgun is best left to the gamers
Your assessment is not correct in this regard, this revolver came about as request from a police agency, this agency had a desire for handgun that could be used as a shield gun by the entry team, having recently set a pistol up for demo and use by police and military - read Glock 17 with a Micro Aimpoint, it was very well received for use as a shield gun and other tasks.
Operating a wheel gun with one hand is a chore. Reloads aren't fast. You can't top up a wheel gun in a hurry, no tactical reload. Single loading rounds could result in several empty chambers before finding the live ones. There is no tell or sign that you've fired all rounds unless you open the cylinder and check or the gun fails to fire(which could be a bad primer as well).
Again this shows your lack of knowledge in the area of police work, the person with the shield would not reload but drop and transition to another identical revolver, referred to as the New York reload pioneered by Jim Cirillo.If you actually spent any time behind a shield you would also see how effective the revolver is in this area, since you do not have to worry about slide impacting the shield when the pistol is fired, less likelyhood of a malfunction.
I can see the revolver is well suited for "serious work". With all the user friendly attributes above, I can't see any intelligent agency/dept./unit not immediately ordering these by the truck load.
Another case of lack of knowledge regarding revolvers, what if I informed you that GIGN Groupe d'Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale), is the French National Gendarmerie's elite Special Operations counter-terrorism and hostage rescue unit, they still use the the Manurhin MR73 revolver for depolyment. If that were not enough GSG9 - Grenzschutzgruppe 9 or Border Guard Group 9 in Germany utilized revolvers for many years, including scoped S&W M29 revolvers.
gadget
... in fact if I can bring myself to shift money from my other pleasures in life, I'd love to start training to compete.
I just got into some action-type competitions the last year. Did a couple IDPA matches and a 3 gun match, as well as 2 of Hungry's cqb/service rifle matches. I want to try IPSC, but haven't been able to work the Black Badge into my schedule.
I realize that not all parts of the game are tactically sound or applicable to 'my' real world scenarios or possibilities. But I'm able to work around that to get the other benefits afforded.
Competitions do not replace my regular training, they supplement range work and drills, as well as scenarios and force on force training.
While the stress is certainly not like a real shooting or high-stress situation, competition does add more stress than running range drills or working in front of your peers. So while some (tdc) may be so closed-minded that they can't see the benefits, I, and some of my peers, can.
Frozen Snake
Regular
- Location
- 49°29'28" N 119°35'19" W
The more I look at this gun the more I like it. No brass to pick up, lots of power if you want it and a futuristic look almost out of blade runner.
Pros and cons to both semi and Revolver, but I appreciate the R&D Smith and Wesson put into this gun. giving the consumer the options to use it for many scenarios being home defence, competition and LEO.
Pros and cons to both semi and Revolver, but I appreciate the R&D Smith and Wesson put into this gun. giving the consumer the options to use it for many scenarios being home defence, competition and LEO.
AMEN!!!! Damn, that was good reading! People need to respect those who serve instead of us, and allow us to do what we do, enjoy our freedoms in peace.
We need to remember to THANK them instead. Freedom is NOT FREE.
My 2 cents.
