2 Groove versus 5 Groove Long Branches

Nabs, the "steel" buttplate of the wartime Number 4 is not steel at all. For one thing, it doesn't rust. Rather, it is Zamak, a zinc-based alloy incorporating aluminum, magnesium and copper. We were able to use it because we had the required base metals in quantity AS WELL AS the ability to refine them to the amazing purity demanded by the Zamak process; the zinc, for example, is held to 99.99%.

A Number 2 bolthead does not necessarily indicate that a rifle has been shot a lot. There are lots of new rifles around sporting Number 2 boltheas. Wartime production standards were relaxed in any cases, and definitey moreso in England than in Canada. We think of a "new" Number 4 as coming out of the plant wearing a "0" bolthead, but that just is not possible when you are making a million of something as quickly as possible. During the war, every effort was made to hold new rifles to a "3" bolthead or lower, with great preference for the "lower". In England a few rifles did come off the line with "4" boltheads, even though this is nowhere to be found in the official records; I once owned a "4" bolthead. STANDARD boltheads were numbers "0", "1", "2" and "3" and, at the factory, bolts would be changed around until one of these, preferably a "0" or a "1" would fit, but rifles also left the factory, absolutely unfired, with "2"s and, when times were really tight and the need for rifles absolutely pressing, with "3"s. Immediately after the war, any rifle in the Service with a "3" was rebuilt carefully (with a new bolt factory-numbered to that rifle) and put in store with a lower-numbered head, generally a "0" or a "1". But a "2" does not necessarily mean a worn or heavily-shot rifle; it could well have been built that way. In any case, you know what spare part you will want to have on hand should you run into a batch of ammo with thin rims: a "3".

As to finding Canadian ownership stamps on a rifle, just remember that the Long Branch rifles were built here! The Canadian militay would hve got "first dibs"on new rifles being made, but a lot also were made on contact for Great Britain. Long Branch rifles purchased by Canada generally had the peculiar Long Branch safety with the thumb-piece looking much like an ankle with a boot on the end of it. The British did not like this safety and specified a more conventional safety: the one to which you referred with the regular thumb-piece with the hole in the end. If you are ever down this way, drop by and I'll let you see a nice Long Branch I have. It is a 1944 with a very rich blue finish, British model safety, nicest wood I have ever seen on a Number 4, beautifully fitted and finished, absolutely unfired..... and not a number on it anywhere. Obviously it was made for display purposes: just far too many peculiarities for it to be a lunch-bucket gun, especially considering the actual mechanical process of making a rifle.

Anyway, hope some of this helps. When you get your Number 4s, let's see some photos! Sounds as if you have a bit of fun work coming up.
.
 
Rear sights

I'll add something here. Just because a good rifle that meets your criteria has a flip type sight, or the stamped ladder type sights on it, do not disregard it as unworthy because it does not have the micrometer type Mark 1 sight.

At almost any Gun Show, you can find the better built Mark 1 Micrometer sights. Usually for less than $25. It is a simple matter to change them, as there is VERY small cross pin that goes through the (left side) end of the rear sight retaining pin. With a small punch, you punch this small cross pin upwards, then push the rear sight retaining pin out to the right, being careful because it is under spring tension. Take off the old sight, put on the Mark 1 micrometer sight, replace the sight retaining pin, and carefully put the small cross pin into the rear sight retaining pin to lock it in place. Takes less than 5 minutes.

The small pin has a tapered end on it, so it will go in easily but tightens up when you tap it down a bit.

Simple, and now you have a fine adjustment sight for better shooting.

As to SMELLIE'S comments on my shooting ability.......thanks George. But I had a lot of advantages, the first and foremost was an old Sergeant-Major who had been an Instructor at the School of Musketry at Hythe, England. There was an almost unlimited supply of ammunition, and a whole rack of rifles to shoot to find the most CONSISTENT one....not necessarily the most accurate, but the one rifle you could count on putting the rounds onto the target day after day, and in different weather conditions. When you did find that rifle, you old assigned rifle mysteriously developed a problem, and had to go to the Armourer, and, surprise, surprise, that particular rifle was then assigned to you.

.
 
Thank you for the explanation George. The 1942 I am looking at does have the British style safety as you described. Both 1943s have the Canadian style safety.

Thanks for the correction on the make of the butt plate, I am use to the brass ones on my SMLEs :D. That is just amazing information about the refining process, I had no idea that Long Branch did this for their butt plates. All this time I thought they were simple steel butt plates.

I am at a cross roads between the 1942 and one of the 1943s. The 1942 is the earlier preferred date and does require a lot of love to be brought back which was my original goal in the venture. She may also come with the "pig sticker" bayonet and what appears to be a metal scabbard both of which saw service. The 1942 has been on the seller's shelf for almost two years now, unloved and uncared for and you can imagine how that grows on you. I am sure everyone here has walked into a gun shop or gun show and heard the cries from the rifles on the racks and tables wanting a new home and some attention. The 1943 is a little cleaner but shows some handling marks on the stock with some deep dings here and there. She has the Mk 2 rear sight but with the Canadian safety knob.

Buffdog, thanks for the info on swapping the rear sights. It is nice to know it is possible. I know with my Gewehr 98s, swapping parts is not always a success, hence the serial numbering of every part on the rifle. What are the odds I may run into this issue with a Mk 1 sight that doesn't quite fit properly ?

George, I will certainly take you up on your offer the next time I am in Manitoba. I have some LB reference images for when I do decide to pick my LB and work on her until she is brought back to a certain level of dignity but seeing the real thing certainly helps with the process.

For you LB serial number experts, the serial number range for the 42 appears to be "6L3###. Any idea if this is an early, mid, or late 42 made rifle ?
 
Last edited:
Thank you for the explanation George. The 1942 I am looking at does have the British style safety as you described. Both 1943s have the Canadian style safety.

Thanks for the correction on the make of the butt plate, I am use to the brass ones on my SMLEs :D. That is just amazing information about the refining process, I had no idea that Long Branch did this for their butt plates. All this time I thought they were simple steel butt plates.

I am at a cross roads between the 1942 and one of the 1943s. The 1942 is the earlier preferred date and does require a lot of love to be brought back which was my original goal in the venture. She may also come with the "pig sticker" bayonet and what appears to be a metal scabbard both of which saw service. The 1942 has been on the seller's shelf for almost two years now, unloved and uncared for and you can imagine how that grows on you. I am sure everyone here has walked into a gun shop or gun show and heard the cries from the rifles on the racks and tables wanting a new home and some attention. The 1943 is a little cleaner but shows some handling marks on the stock with some deep dings here and there. She has the Mk 2 rear sight but with the Canadian safety knob.

Buffdog, thanks for the info on swapping the rear sights. It is nice to know it is possible. I know with my Gewehr 98s, swapping parts is not always a success, hence the serial numbering of every part on the rifle. What are the odds I may run into this issue with a Mk 1 sight that doesn't quite fit properly ?

George, I will certainly take you up on your offer the next time I am in Manitoba. I have some LB reference images for when I do decide to pick my LB and work on her until she is brought back to a certain level of dignity but seeing the real thing certainly helps with the process.

For you LB serial number experts, the serial number range for the 42 appears to be "6L3###. Any idea if this is an early, mid, or late 42 made rifle ?

There were 3 different Long Branch safeties, the 42 would probably have the one with a hole in it. Look for LB stamped on the safety and or the safety spring. Don't assume it's British.

Did you say this rifle is an Indian rebuild? If so they may have scrubbed all of the markings off...
 
The rifles are currently in storage so they will only pull them out if I am serious about purchasing one of them.

I can see some sort of serial numeber on the safety but it difficult to make anything else out. There is what appears to be a bit of white paint on the top of the butt stock (a small splattering it seems) and what appears to be a rack number stamped into the left side of the butt stock.

The LB maker and model stamp on the left side of the receiver is quite clear, as is the sold of service marking on the receiver and what appears to be the "LB" symbol on the Mark 1 rear sight. The LB serial number is also present on the left side of the butt socket and I cannot make out any Indian refurbishment marks on either side of the socket from the images provided.

I will have another look at the photos tonight. Does anyone have a picture of the "LB" style marking as stamped on the safety knob ? I currently do not have a reference picture for this part.
 
Here's the marking on my barrel showing it has 6 grooves:

43mprifle002.jpg


Here is a nice 45 LB showing the safety markings:

img1192ve0.jpg
 
I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet. Looking forward to it though!
Still one of the favorites in my collection.
Thanks Cantom!
 
sight changes

It is quite easy to change the rear sights. I would say you had a 95% of getting one that will fit, as they were made to certain specifications. The problem comes when someone wants to put a sight designed for the .22 Calibre rifles onto a .303 one. (lets not get into that one).

If you look at CANTOM's good picture in Post #28 above, just above the safety you will see a groove....and the little sight locking pin that has to be pushed out. Very simple. It takes longer to write about the procedure than do it.

Also, there are brand new Long Branch steel buttplates available. Trade Ex might have some, but they are regularly advertised on E-Bay.

.
 
Thanks guys, those pictures are great! I had another look but alas, that area of the rifle in the pictures provided by the Epps is not focused to the point I can see the "LB" marking. There does appear to be three or four digit number stamped on the safety lever.

Cantom, in comparison to your safety lever, the one on the '42 looks like it had the top of lever (right above the circular hole drilled right through it) milled off a bit. I am guessing it was done to save weight and materials ?

Buffdog, thank you for the information. I may need replacement parts if some are found to be really rotten through. It seems only the wood stock needs some serious love as there appears to be some water or moisture damage to the left side of the fore stock right under the action(looks like the wood shriveled up in that area). The right side is fine.

My friend thinks she may have seen some service with the British against the Japanese. Makes sense in 1942 but I can't be sure at this point.
 
The 6-groove barrels are not common at all.

They were, however, highly prized by the competition shooters. Everybody wanted two of them (one for his rifle... and a spare to stash away, of course) but they were expensive and also few and far between.

Any time one was brought out to play with, everyone else on the range would remark on it, generally with considerable envy.
.
 
LB produced 6 groove RH twist barrels, marked 6 on the bayo lug, on barreling machinery used for the BREN gun. These were a post-war product. I had an LB50 rifle with one of these and another LB 50 in the same 93L range which had the conventional 5 groove LH twist barrel.

I've shot M1903 Springfields with both 2 groove and 4 groove barrels extensively and couldn't tell any practical difference in accuracy. My M1903A4 Sniper is fitted with an original 2 groove barrel, as are many others, and it is a very accurate rifle. High Standard produced both 4 and 6 groove barrels for use on the M1903A3 rifles made by Smith-Corona. Again, there was no practical difference in accuracy vs the 2 and 4 groove barrels.
 
Last edited:
Nabs- the second variation of Long Branch safety had that little notch cut out of the top of the safety. The third is the slipper shape.

BTW, hate to say it but that rifle sounds too rough. There are better ones to be found.

Come to Ancaster gun show tomorrow...the Enfield guy will have better on his table.


Thanks guys, those pictures are great! I had another look but alas, that area of the rifle in the pictures provided by the Epps is not focused to the point I can see the "LB" marking. There does appear to be three or four digit number stamped on the safety lever.

Cantom, in comparison to your safety lever, the one on the '42 looks like it had the top of lever (right above the circular hole drilled right through it) milled off a bit. I am guessing it was done to save weight and materials ?

Buffdog, thank you for the information. I may need replacement parts if some are found to be really rotten through. It seems only the wood stock needs some serious love as there appears to be some water or moisture damage to the left side of the fore stock right under the action(looks like the wood shriveled up in that area). The right side is fine.
My friend thinks she may have seen some service with the British against the Japanese. Makes sense in 1942 but I can't be sure at this point.
 
Back
Top Bottom