Sloppy die tolerances rant

I have heard of Bonanza reloading equipment, but in the Third Edition of Reloaders Digest, the only Bonanza equipment listed was a Bonanza beam scale.
I'm wondering if maybe Forster took them over.
In that reloaders digest are literally dozens of makes of reloading equipment not available today. My old C-H magnum press is there, with the complete C-H line. There is also the complete Herters line, the Belding and Mull, Herkner line, Hollywood presses, which may be the best presses ever available to the public.
There was the Lachmiller, the Ruhr-American and the great Potters, along with the Texans, The Star, the Savage and the Saeco. What a great variety of equipment that was once available for us.
But Bonanza, while once available, is not listed in this book.
 
H4831 said:
I have heard of Bonanza reloading equipment, but in the Third Edition of Reloaders Digest, the only Bonanza equipment listed was a Bonanza beam scale.
I'm wondering if maybe Forster took them over.
In that reloaders digest are literally dozens of makes of reloading equipment not available today. My old C-H magnum press is there, with the complete C-H line. There is also the complete Herters line, the Belding and Mull, Herkner line, Hollywood presses, which may be the best presses ever available to the public.
There was the Lachmiller, the Ruhr-American and the great Potters, along with the Texans, The Star, the Savage and the Saeco. What a great variety of equipment that was once available for us.
But Bonanza, while once available, is not listed in this book.
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Bonanza is indeed now Forster. FS
 
My reason for shortening dies, rather than shellholders, is that I use a Bonanza CO-AX press (now made and marketed by Forster). The Co-Ax press uses an auto shellholder which will fit any case short of .50BMG. Also the resizing problem was not that the die was not bumping the shoulder back far enough, it was that the die was not resizing the body of the case enough near the base.
And yes Dogleg, I am a cheap bastard! I like to load in 50 or 100 round batches, so one starts with new unprimed brass. Then you lose a case or two hunting, and rather than buy a new bag of 50 (thus having 48 spares) I try to use old cases that I have on hand or have found.
The main thing is SAMMI sets specs and dimensions for commercial cartridges, and all ammo manufacturers adhere to those specs. No problems with factory ammo or new unprimed brass. But as several have pointed out the "bean-counters" at the firearms manufacturers and the reloading die manufacturers have found that by starting with oversize reamers they can resharpen several times and get more life out of their tools. It used to be that premium makers like Redding made their tools to closer specs than the cheaper brands, but no more. In my opinion Redding is trading on their past rep just as Winchester did post 1964. And yes, I have talked to Redding, and they don't care.
It is my observation that older die sets circa 1970 to 1985 were made much closer to SAMMI cartridge dimensions than any of the modern major brands.
 
There's not much wrong with being cheap. There's also not much wrong with trying to use the best of everything. What you are doing is a curious mixture of the two. What you are doing is akin to building a racecar, then topping up the tank with diesel on random days. At that point is it the finely tuned race-engine, the diesel or the operator's fault?
 
Dogleg, I don't get your analogy. People who discard their brass at the firing line at the range do so because they don't reload. Therefore how is a Win brass (once fired factory) of lesser quality than the Win brass I just fired for the first time? Other than it was not fired in my rifle, and a quality sizing die made to SAMMI dimensions should resize it back close to factory ammo size.
My whole rant was to point out that so-called premium dies are made to much sloppier tolerances than they were 30 yrs ago!
I am not new to handloading. At present I own and reload for 32 different rifle calibers and 11 handgun calibers. Have been handloading (and casting lead bullets for handgun & some rifle) for 40+ years. In that time I have encountered many quirks & have figured a way around all of them. What set off my rant is that I have encountered the sloppy die problem so many times. When someone offers you a bunch of once fired brass in rare or hard to get calibers (like 7X61 S&H) of course you accept. After all, you can't just run down to Wholesale Sports and buy a bag of new unprimed. And then your damn die will not resize it enough to chamber in your tight Schultz & Larsen!
Right now I am looking for .32-40 brass & .32-20 brass. Wholesale does not stock it. I may have to bring it in from Sinclair in the U.S. , but you can bet if someone offers me old used brass, I will accept!
 
If anything, I find die quality to be much better now than in days past. 'course I don't judge quality soley by a die being at minimum specs. So many of those old dies size cases so crooked you can shoot around corners with them.:p Is it better to oversize cases in practically every application so you can chamber range pickups in a minimum chamber? They make a die for that use. You need one.

I also don't value haveing an even number of cases in a box more than haveing matched brass, or in your case more than function. I've spent too much money on quality brass, and enough time experimenting with neck tension to want throw wild cases into the set.

Is 40 years a long time, and is 32 calibers a big number? Strange that you still can't make ammo that will chamber. I can. :p
 
SAMMI specs are pretty sloppy on some of the cartridges. Nothing to write home about. Some of them are so sloppy that I would seriously reconsider using them, but they are there, and that is what the makers signed on for. Look at the min cartridge/max chamber spreads on cartridges like the 303 Brit, or the 22 Hornet. Good for their intended purposes, but not much joy if you want case life. And yes, I am aware that those are extreme cases.

Have you checked that the chamber on the S&L IS actually within SAMMI specs? Chamber cast? Sounds like they were pushing the tight side of the specs, if they were within them at all.
The commercial ammo makers mostly signed on, the die makers are running what fits the majority, but did S&L have a guy deciding that 'tight' chambers were better?

Really, with so many guys getting good results from production dies, I'd have to say that the problem is less likely to be the dies than the rifles.

I keep thinking of the old joke about a Military parade, where the voice in the stands says "Look! They are all out of step, except for MY son!". Maybe it's the rifles, not the dies that should be looked at with a critical eye.

Lots of good work-arounds here.

Cheers
Trev
 
trevj said:
SAMMI specs are pretty sloppy on some of the cartridges. Nothing to write home about. Some of them are so sloppy that I would seriously reconsider using them, but they are there, and that is what the makers signed on for.Have you checked that the chamber on the S&L IS actually within SAMMI specs? Chamber cast? Sounds like they were pushing the tight side of the specs, if they were within them at all.
Really, with so many guys getting good results from production dies, I'd have to say that the problem is less likely to be the dies than the rifles.

Maybe it's the rifles, not the dies that should be looked at with a critical eye.

Cheers
Trev
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Yes, all S&L rifles have tight chambers exactly the same way the benchrest shooters prefer their own. S&L Co. are master gunsmiths, all their products are of benchrest quality or it doesn't leave their door, and I wouldn't suspect them of substandard work not what so ever. If the die doesn't size the brass fired in S&L rifle that means the die is a junk, full stop.
 
Anyone stop and find out WHY the sized cases wouldn't chamber?
No point in shortening dies or altering shellholders if the problem isn't length.....
 
gunrunner8 said:
. If the die doesn't size the brass fired in S&L rifle that means the die is a junk, full stop.
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I have to agree with trevj, a rifle is most likely chambered below SAAMI spec., especially since european gun makers do not have to follow American SAAMI specs, and you expect a SAAMI spec die to work perfectly?

Who's to say that the height of the auto shell holder on the press isn't the problem or at least part of it?
 
If the die doesn't size the brass fired in S&L rifle that means the die is a junk, full stop.
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He doesn't seem to a problem sizeing the cases fired in his S&L rifle, or a custom chambered rifle he mentioned,which stands to reason since if they came out of that chamber they logically should go back in.
The problem is he wants to use cases that were fired in another rifle with a standard or oversized chamber and expects to do it with a standard die set. That will sometimes work, but one shouldn't be astonished when it doesn't. When you push the limits, a one size fits all mentality is best abandoned.

Yes, all S&L rifles have tight chambers exactly the same way the benchrest shooters prefer their own.
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Benchrest shooters aren't really known for useing range pickups.
 
Dogleg, properly machined die MUST down size the brass fired in ANY chamber either oversized or not. Trust me, S&L made chambers are on the tight side but never undersized. I agree it's propably not the shoulder that needs to be pushed but brass body dia that is in need to be reduced.
 
Maybe see if you can get chamber dimensions from the maker? The comment Tiraq made earlier is a good one. It would be interesting to take a micrometer to a fired case and compare. Also that a chamber below saami spec is possible, most benchrest chambers are....
 
gunrunner8, I gotta call horse puckey on that.

If a properly machined die was able to size down brass fired in any chamber, we would neither have small base dies, or, for that matter, any dies of sizes other than "THE" (Insert angels blowing horns noise here) size for each caliber. But we gots small base, tight neck, shortened, and about ten variations of every other dimension that might be changed on a die, depending on production tolerances, and whatever theory that the maker of the dies, or the guy that ordered custom ones, thought was the right way to do it.

Personally, I figure if I were to run into this, I'd cast or have cast the chamber, check the sizes, and see how the numbers match, and see if I was looking at a custom set of dies, not whinge about how everyone makes crappy dies because they don't work in MY rifle.

If everyone used only one specific set of dimensions to chamber each caliber, all would be well. They don't.

Cheers
Trev
 
The "spring back" can be quite a bit when sizing a case fired in a large chamber. The die may be perfect but the spring back of the case will get ya.

This is also true of a case that has been fired enough times to work harden. Hard brass springs back.
 
European rifles are not SAAMI spec. Even is its very very close, it is not the same.I have a Voere rifle that refuses to be loaded anything but brass that has been fully resized (perfectly!)
Look in any new reloading manual and thier are differing reloading practices for semi-auto service rifles as an example. Anyone that complains about range brass pickups should open up his wallet & buy some brand new brass, therefore adding some consistancy to his results.
 
Guys, an undersize chamber is not the problem. Factory ammo whether Norma, Federal, Win. etc. will all fit into any Schultz rifle. Ditto new unprimed brass. Factory ammo has to fit any rifle in that caliber. Shouldn't resizing dies be expected to resize any fired case so that it will chamber in any rifle also???? At times I have owned 3 or more rifles in the same caliber. While we find a different "sweet" load for each rifle, when I throw the brass in the tumbler I don't keep the Win Mod 70 .270 brass separate from the Sako .270 brass and the S&L .270 brass. When they come out of the tumbler, I expect that a trip through the sizing die will have them ready to chamber in any of the 3 guns. And I have found that possible in most cases with my older die sets, but not with newer die sets.
 
gunrunner8 said:
Dogleg, properly machined die MUST down size the brass fired in ANY chamber either oversized or not. Trust me, S&L made chambers are on the tight side but never undersized. I agree it's propably not the shoulder that needs to be pushed but brass body dia that is in need to be reduced.
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I've got enough minimum chambered and tighter than sammi spec chambers to recognize his problem when I see it. Very few standard dies will take a fired case down to sammi minimum specs, that's why they make small base dies in the first place. Small base body dies are selling well, and it's not to the "save a nickel on brass crowd".

I could salvage those 500 .264 once fired cases for him in about a couple hours. He could too, if he wanted to listen.
 
Factory ammo, and new factory brass is minimum spec or very close to it. You can prove that by running a new case through your reloading die without lube. Chances are it won't even touch on the body, never mind stick.
 
Republic of Alberta said:
The "spring back" can be quite a bit when sizing a case fired in a large chamber. The die may be perfect but the spring back of the case will get ya.


This is likely the problem with the Schultz and Larson. I've said on here a few times how I did a fair bit of testing with them in 7 x 61. I think the original factory Norma loadings were very high pressure, but a case sized with a RCBS FL die, would often not go back in the chamber it was fired in. Not all rifles were like this, but some were. The factory reps were brought in on this, but I can't remember them giving a certain answer of why this was so. The bolt held at the rear was often thought to be the culprit.
I think the later Norma factory loads may be loaded down a bit. Or, the newer loads may be using a lighter and /or softer case.
I once gave an original 7 x 61 Norma factory load to Johnn Peterson on these threads. I asked him if he would chronograph it, and compare it to the newer Norma factory loads. Come spring time, he probably will.
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