Thinking of Swiss Classic Green - Reloading?

Way She Goes said:
Try H322 and 52-53 gr match bullets. I shoot .56-.75 MOA on average with my swiss arms. Brass is not an issue.
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Powder charge?

Styrak said:
It's a gun...it's meant to be shot...
Unless you want it to be a safe queen, then I guess you can do that.

The previous owner of my Black Special put the velcro on (it was a safe queen). I took it off.
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That's counter-intuitive. If it was a safe queen then there's no need for the velcro. If it's meant to be shot then the velcro is a valuable idea. Ever try to sell a gun that beat to tripe? Let me know how it goes for you.
 
ghostie said:
On the recommendation of some of the guys on this sight I went to the Aimpoint Micro T1 on the Kyle rail. The main benefit of it? It co-witnesses with the diopter
T1Micro.jpg
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what mount is the t1 on? and could u possibly take a picture of the sights co-witnessing?
 
winnipegger said:
what mount is the t1 on? and could u possibly take a picture of the sights co-witnessing?
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There is actually no mount there. That is just how the T1 comes, right out of the box. It has it's own built in mount. I can see if I can get some good pictures up for you - maybe later tonight if I don't crash out upon getting home from work.
 
Oh that's great news yeah man whenever you get a chance haha crash if you need to im not in any hurry.
Where did u pick up the t1?
 
Styrak said:
It's a gun...it's meant to be shot...
Unless you want it to be a safe queen, then I guess you can do that.

The previous owner of my Black Special put the velcro on (it was a safe queen). I took it off.
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Besides protecting the rifle`s finish, high-pile velcro can serve the dual purpose of partially protecting ejected brass from getting too badly dinged up during the ejection process. As another poster pointed out, if the rifle was a `safe queen`there would be no need for velcro, as the rifle would not be shot.

As for bbl. twist rates, either twist is fine, unless you want to handload the uber heavy 75+ gr bullets. As it stands, the 1:10 handles all standard military surplus up to 63 grs. I`ve shot heavier varmint bullets up to 69 grs with no problems. Unless you plan on shooting the `heavies`I wouldn`t pay a premium for the 1:7.
 
The 69 Sierra Match Kings accuracy fell apart past 300m for me when shooting them from a 1:10. The 69 SMK is pretty much the same length-wise as the 63 gr. FMJ used in the GP-90.
If you plan on doing any shooting and loading for the longer ranges and want to muck about with the longer/heavier bullets, there is no good reason to stick with a 1:10 twist barrel....
However, GP-90 is very good ammo and it will certainly perform well out to 500m, especially against the 69s, and sometimes against the 77s.
 
beltfed said:
The 69 Sierra Match Kings accuracy fell apart past 300m for me when shooting them from a 1:10. The 69 SMK is pretty much the same length-wise as the 63 gr. FMJ used in the GP-90.
If you plan on doing any shooting and loading for the longer ranges and want to muck about with the longer/heavier bullets, there is no good reason to stick with a 1:10 twist barrel....
However, GP-90 is very good ammo and it will certainly perform well out to 500m, especially against the 69s, and sometimes against the 77s.
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I find this really interesting.... like i said earlier my rifle doesnt stabilize the 69's even at 100m (was like 10 inch groups by the time i was shooting at 200) and you say that the 63 grain is nearly the same length as the 69smk, any theories as to why there is such a difference in the 1/10 guns? My test target at 300m was like 4.5 inch i believe? Thats what i was getting at 100m with the smk's. I'd really like to get some amount of accuracy out of this gun.
 
Yes, I was wondering what kind of accuracy a guy could really get out of one of these rifles or what they're really capable of. I would certainly expect that with the proper ammo and a decent scope that one should be getting respectable, or at the least, "reasonable" groups.

I mean if you're going to drop the boat load of $$$ for a CG, the thing had bloody well better perform - no matter how well it handles and how cool it is, no?
 
I'd be happy with 1-2moa consistantly at ranges out to 400m (i doubt i could shoot that well past 200m but hey one can dream)

Another thing i noticed the other day when shooting was that i was getting alot of glare off the front siteblade when the sun was setting. (i had my back to it) any idea's to reduce glare? i thought maybe some soot or something? or black cam-paint?
 
You have to remember that they are designed as an Infantry rifle.
In the pic I posted earlier, 4 of the shots are inside 2". A bad trigger pull opened the group up to 3.5" with the 5th round.
I can and have shot groups at 200m where I got it right for all 5 rounds (2" @ 200m). That is as good as I can shoot period regardless of using an Hbar, C7 or the SAN. My point being that if I wanted to see how good my rifle really shoots, I would have to bolt the thing into a machine rest and take myself out of the equation. We can see how these rifles shoot from the accuracy requirements they have to meet in the form of the test targets they initially come with. The Swiss seem to have the ammo perfectly tuned as well.
Bottom line, it will perform as well as the guy using it.

For that front sight post, just hit it with some sight black.
 
Ok Ill bite.. What is your load specifics

Way She Goes said:
Try H322 and 52-53 gr match bullets. I shoot .56-.75 MOA on average with my swiss arms. Brass is not an issue.
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Would love to know the exact specifics of this load.. OAL, Bullet Manufacturer, primer type used, powder weight used.. Even would like to know which reloading dies you are using..

I have tried many different powders and projectiles and still only get 1.25 MOA at best..

Can you show use some targets?

RDG
 
rdgietz said:
Would love to know the exact specifics of this load.. OAL, Bullet Manufacturer, primer type used, powder weight used.. Even would like to know which reloading dies you are using..

I have tried many different powders and projectiles and still only get 1.25 MOA at best..

Can you show use some targets?

RDG
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Don't measure by OAL, measure by ogive length. My caliper battery is dead so I can't help you on that at the moment.

Here are the specifics:

Remington fireformed case, sorted by overall case length
Cleaned primer pockets
handweighted charges
concentricity corrected on the hornady concentricity tool
25.5 grains of H322
Federal Match small rifle primer
Redding Match .223 dies
52 grain Seirra Match HPBT

I measure by 5 shot groups by the way.

I just did up some loads without all the fancy stuff I usually do, I'm going to test them to see how they do next time I go to the range.

By the way I never had any luck with the 68-69grain stuff, no matter what I did. They all shot 2-4" on average. I have a friend in Germany and he says the 52 grain loads are the way to go. He's the one who got me on board :)
 
I will try it...

Way She Goes said:
Don't measure by OAL, measure by ogive length. My caliper battery is dead so I can't help you on that at the moment.

Here are the specifics:

Remington fireformed case, sorted by overall case length
Cleaned primer pockets
handweighted charges
concentricity corrected on the hornady concentricity tool
25.5 grains of H322
Federal Match small rifle primer
Redding Match .223 dies
52 grain Seirra Match HPBT

I measure by 5 shot groups by the way.

I just did up some loads without all the fancy stuff I usually do, I'm going to test them to see how they do next time I go to the range.

By the way I never had any luck with the 68-69grain stuff, no matter what I did. They all shot 2-4" on average. I have a friend in Germany and he says the 52 grain loads are the way to go. He's the one who got me on board :)
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Thanks for the info..
I have used numerous powders, Varget, Benchmark, Reloader 15, and RAM TAC and Xterm.. I trim my casings to 1.760" and chamfer both the inside and outside of the rim... I use Dillon Dies and a Forester CoAX press and hand weigh each powder charge with a very good analytical scale (4 decimal places when in the gram mode). I full length size each case but do not crimp. I use Federal match small rifle primers.

I have tried 75 grain V Max, 77 grain SMK, 75 grain Berger VLDs, 53 grain hornady match bullets, 60 grain H A-MAX, 63 grain Seirra, 65 grain Sierra Spitzer BT,

I have tried many different OAL... from 2.260 to 2.314"

only can get 1.5 MOA from some of the loads.. most are terrible.. giving 4 inch groups at 100 yards...

What does this load chrony at...

I will have to load up some and go out to the range when it warms up a bit..

Thanks again for you info.

RDG
 
winnipegger said:
I find this really interesting.... like i said earlier my rifle doesnt stabilize the 69's even at 100m (was like 10 inch groups by the time i was shooting at 200) and you say that the 63 grain is nearly the same length as the 69smk, any theories as to why there is such a difference in the 1/10 guns? My test target at 300m was like 4.5 inch i believe? Thats what i was getting at 100m with the smk's. I'd really like to get some amount of accuracy out of this gun.
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That isn't right. The 1:10s came from the factory whereby they fired 10 rounds from a machine rest and all rounds land within a 10cm square with GP90.
I would suspect something is out like the barrel being filthy, scope is loose or other mechanical malfunction. Additionally, the Sigs are quite sensitive in how they are shot. If shooting from the factory bipod for example, the poi will shift several inches than if shot holding the handguards.
In this way, it is finicky about the consistancy of hold from shot to shot.
Below is a side view of several popular .224 bullets. Not intended to be a concise collection of rounds available, its just what I have on hand...
224BulletSelectionJPG.jpg

From Left to Right:
Hornady 53 gr. HP Match
Hornady 55 gr. FMJ/BT
Sierra 60 gr. HP 'Varminter'
Hornady 60 gr. V-Max
Speer 62 gr. FMJBT
IVI 62 gr. SS109
Ruag 63 gr. FMJBT (from GP90)
Sierra 63 Gr. Semi-Point 'Varminter'
Sierra 69 gr. Match King HPBT
Berger 70 gr. LTB
Berger 73 gr. LTB
Berger 73 gr. BT Thick
Hornady 75 gr. HPBT
Berger 75 gr. Target VLD
Hornady 75 gr. AMax
Sierra 77 gr. Match King w\canalure
Sierra 80 gr. Match King
Berger 80 gr. VLD
Berger 90 gr. VLD

The reality is most of this is poorly suited to an autoloader, and some are good performers over the others, regardless of whether your twist is 1:10 or 1:7
If I was running a 1:10, I'd stick to the following:

60-69gr224bullets.jpg

From Left to Right:
Sierra 60 gr. HP 'Varminter'
Hornady 60 gr. V-Max
IVI 62 gr. SS109
Ruag 63 gr. FMJBT (from GP90)
Sierra 69 gr. Match King HPBT
Hornady 68 gr. HPBT

I'd leave the 50ish gr. bullets alone - those things are for 1:12s and quite frankly they suck. Anything they can do the 60ish bullets do better anyhow, so stick to 60 + grain bullets. (the Hornady 60 gr. V-max is a wonderful performer out of a 1:10 twist sig and my favorite out of the bunch)

As far as handloading for them, there are no real tricks you need to follow.
Using match dies certainly helps with concentricity, and match primers helps with consistancy, but don't sweat cleaning primer cups, neck turning brass, or individual weighted charges to the hundreths of a grain :rolleyes:.
Anyone who is only getting 4" at 100m = well it isn't the gun....;)
 
Well i realize it may not be the gun i do believe it was the ammo.... (and me aswell no doubt) but I switched to 55gr south african surplus and me and my pops both shot 1.5-2 inch groups. Im using irons (so no loose optics or anything like that) and the handguard (no bipod). Here is a picture of my test target....
I didnt make up what i said as you can see it is actually 126mm thats not quite 10cm
SDC10594.jpg


The exact load i used was 69smk's with 25.5 gr's of RL15 and fed match primers.
I have a bunch of 62gr fmjbt's im gonna try to work up a load with using win735... Im hoping it will go better. If not i'm going to try the 60gr v-max. I'm sure i'll find something that works. That was the first load i tried only becuase i was able to shoot .75-1.25 regularly with my mini 14 target with that load. Anyways i'm going shooting this weekend I'll save the targets if anything note worthy happens. I still have about 100 rounds loaded with the 69gr pills (i'll have the 62 fmjbt's aswell) so i'll give it another go and see what happens. Im gonna try using solely magwell grip to make sure that i eliminate any issues of forend pressure (as you and others have said these rifles may be picky about that)
Thanks for the help too bad the 63 gr gp90 rounds aren't available for reloading.
 
Winnipegger- That's interesting that using surplus 55gr tightened up your groups. I find mine does well with either AE 55gr or M193
1-1/4" to 1-5" is the average group size @ 100 for me using irons.

I get the best results either shooting off the mag or holding by the magwell.
Resting the handguard shifts my POI around, same with the bipod like beltfed pointed out.
 
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rdgietz said:
Thanks for the info..
I have used numerous powders, Varget, Benchmark, Reloader 15, and RAM TAC and Xterm.. I trim my casings to 1.760" and chamfer both the inside and outside of the rim... I use Dillon Dies and a Forester CoAX press and hand weigh each powder charge with a very good analytical scale (4 decimal places when in the gram mode). I full length size each case but do not crimp. I use Federal match small rifle primers.

I have tried 75 grain V Max, 77 grain SMK, 75 grain Berger VLDs, 53 grain hornady match bullets, 60 grain H A-MAX, 63 grain Seirra, 65 grain Sierra Spitzer BT,

I have tried many different OAL... from 2.260 to 2.314"

only can get 1.5 MOA from some of the loads.. most are terrible.. giving 4 inch groups at 100 yards...

What does this load chrony at...

I will have to load up some and go out to the range when it warms up a bit..

Thanks again for you info.

RDG
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Crimp for the love of God, its a semi auto.

Don't have chrony results for you.

Mind you I am using a 26" sniper model. But I can assure you these rifles do have a sensative sweet spot. Even only 25.0 grains of h322 and it was 1.5-2" groups.

And get the concentricity gauge, you'd be surprised how out of wack some of the loadings come out, even on top of the line amtch dies.

But keep in mind this is a battle rifle and not a benchrest rifle. Anything under 1.25 MOA is more than enough to get the job done for the capabilities of the .223 cartidge.
 
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