Shilen 223 observations

warrenb

warrenb

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I have a Shilen 1 in 8 twist 223 prefit for a Savage action. One thing that has been pecking away at my thought processes is the depth of throat on this barrel. For instance I compare it to a standard Savage 223 with 1 in 9 twist and the shilen is a little over a hundred thou shorter before the same bullet touches the lands.

My standard savage barrel has a what I think is a good balance when loading, 50 to 69 grainers. Using 69 gr SMKs as an example, I can seat the bullet out further (110 thou) in the savage barrel than the shilen. I have taken head space into account.

Loading for the Shilen barrel my 80 grain AMAX are stuffed well into the case. I can still get 24.5 grains of Varget behind them without pressure signs. But the bullet stuffed that far into the case just looks/feels wrong. :confused:

I am not complaining just wondering what others think. Trying to edjicate meself a little. :)
 
You will get more pressure by seating a bullet long than by seating a bullet short. The 223 is a cartridge for which there are so many possible bullet choices. That is good and bad, because most people that use custom barrels have their guns chambered for the exact type of bullet they plan to use.

As long as the bearing surface-boat tail junction on the bullet is above the neck shoulder junction on the case, you are fine.
 
Thaks Ian.

I only have a couple of years of reloading behind me so my experience with different calibers/bullets is extremely limited.

The problem (?) as I see it with this particular throat bullet combination is that the start of the bullet bearing surface, when seated, is almost at the start of the neck and hence about 80% of the boat tail is into the case body.

I hear what your saying with regard to:- "custom barrels have their guns chambered for the exact type of bullet they plan to use"

I'm still kinda wondering what others experience are with these barrels, I would have thought the fast twist shilens would have come with a little more throat as standard.
 
You are giving these companys to much credit. Just because they build custom barrels does not mean that they know what is actually done with them.

It is actually scary to talk to some of these companys. They have no idea. They hire machinist not gunsmiths.

You need to buy a throating reamer or find someone with one and have your throat lengthened by a smith. You can even buy a set of guides that allows you to do it on your bench.
 
Warren if you are shooting boat tails, do not fret. BT bullets do not have a PRONOUNCED pressure ring like flat base bullets. You can seat the BT deep without any real issues like a FB bullet.

I am with 6mm shooter on prefit barrels. They are not made to the spec that everyone may want. They chamber barrels with what they feel will sell pre chambered. Yes with a Savage you can save money because one can headspace themselves but with a Rem, Tikka etc unless you have a barrel nut like the Savage you have to involve a gunsmith. If you ahve to do that it is best to have him do all the work and chamber for what YOU want and not the masses.

CBY
 
Prefit is what you get, it's mass produced not custom. Some guy will spit out a hundred of them a day on shift runs changing reamers as they wear. You save money on not getting a gunsmith, but must accept the unknown chamber you get. The other fact is that you never get a custom thread fit also. Threads tend to be a little loose so as to make sure sure they fit any action. Not that this is so bad, but nothing like a true fitted barrel done well. I have not seen any Shilen prefit barrels, but a few I worked on had short tenons, crooked and short chambers. I ended up having to cut the tenon off completely and start again.

The Wylde .223 reamer is setup for the 80gr pills with proper throat or use a throating reamer. Either one will get you what you need.
 
Ah, the choir has sung.

Sorry, Shilen produces these prefits on the same line and people that build their BR rifles. the same levels of QC are used. Big reason these barrels are getting slower to get. Demand far far outstrips manpower. they keep expanding their crew and demand keeps outpacing that. however, the barrels are not rushed out as some manf do.

If there is ANY problem, they have been there to support me and my customers. Of which, I have had a grand total of TWO in as many years of happy sales.

The biggest critism shooters have is how LONG factory throats are. Mag length ammo is no where near the throat. That has a lot to do with liability then performance. And in a number of situations, accuracy degrades,

Shilen uses PTG reamers made to SAAMI requirements and a few tweaks to IMPROVE performance over the widest range of users.

A throat can always and easily be lengthened. That certainly cannot be said about shorterning.

I presently shoot a barrel with the same reamer and 80gr amax. This is a perfect set up for a mag fed Savage. Mag length AND just off the lands. 1/4 min accuracy at 200yds off a bipod and reaches out to at least 1400yds (furthest I have shot this rifle).

A BT seated below the neck shoulder junction doesn't blow up,shoot wonky or make your d!ck fall off. This "rule" has more to do with donut formation (which can be caused by other parameters - another story) and to max case volume for powder.

As long you are able to get the desired load in the case without compression AND desired proximity to the lands this IS what a custom set up should be.

If you did get a Wylde, you will find that mag fed length puts you no where near the lands. single shot 90gr VLD loads with max OAL, sure but that would never fit in a mag. And if single loading, I would go with other parameters then the WYLDE- way too sloppy for my liking.

application determines the specs. Vary the goals, vary the specs.

My 223 F TR barrels are inproduction when they arrive I will set the throat to my needs. I control where that throater goes, no mistakes, no communication errors. Seems to help me keep my bullets in the same hole.

For those that have not seen Shilens reamer list, they may want to have a look. I doubt you find as many custom match reamers available to suit common BR and competition set ups.

Yes, you get to choose whatever reamer you want AND they will use your reamer if desired.

That is value WAY beyond the price. I have enjoyed working with a company that actually competes with the gear they manf.

Yes, for those who didn't know, many of the 'hacks' compete in various forms of competition....

Jerry
 
OK, so the Shilen prefits are made to a different standard. The OP was concerned about a shorter throat than he was accustomed too. Is everyone told that throats have to be customized after receiving the barrel if it's not to your liking?

Like I said, I haven't even seen a Shilen prefit so cannot comment on their QC and was only making comments on other brands.

What is exactly wrong with the Wylde chamber? It's used in AR platforms of course, but has done a superb job in setting records in F-Class boltguns at Connaught. Yes it can be tightened a little more than SAMMI, but when seating 80gr Sierra and Bergers it's right there.
 
If the bearing surface is ahead of the neck/shoulder juncture at all, it is just fine. One thing is certain, the throat will not get shorter from shooting. If the bullet has to be seated below the neck/shoulder juncture, you may want lengthen the throat. The 223 cartridge is cursed with that very short neck so it is not real flexible.
As long as you are not neck turning, seating below the neck isn't too serious. If you are neck turning, the bullet does have to be located ahead of the corner. Regards, Bill.
 
lejarretnoir said:
OK, so the Shilen prefits are made to a different standard. The OP was concerned about a shorter throat than he was accustomed too. Is everyone told that throats have to be customized after receiving the barrel if it's not to your liking?

Like I said, I haven't even seen a Shilen prefit so cannot comment on their QC and was only making comments on other brands.

What is exactly wrong with the Wylde chamber? It's used in AR platforms of course, but has done a superb job in setting records in F-Class boltguns at Connaught. Yes it can be tightened a little more than SAMMI, but when seating 80gr Sierra and Bergers it's right there.
Click to expand...

I shot several Shilen prefits before becoming a dealer and daring to put one on my F class rig. I do my best to place well and wonky chambers just don't do much for scores.

All the brass I have shot from all of these chambers have had zero runout and the heads were square with the case body. They were cut precisely, repeatably and bang on to my guages.

I do use the same brass between barrels.

Crowns have also been dead on with an even bevel as shown by the exhaust marks.

As good as any barrel I have had installed.

Obviously, no one has bothered to check or monitor or complain but the F class rules state 223 Rem chamber. The 223 Wylde is a variant and a named one with a recognised reamer print.

Legality can be debated but really up to the match director.

I really don't think anyone bothers with throat length as that will lengthen all on its own.

Would anyone even bother to check - who knows? BUT some really anal director could and if the barrel is stamped something other then 223 Rem or if the ammo is a bit fat and doesn't go into a cartridge guage, now what?

In a 'factory' class, growing your case is desired but that is bending the rules.

maybe another post would be beneficial cause I would really like to see a ruling in print on the chamber specs and how a range director will monitor.

If they would bother at all.....??????

Jerry
 
Leeper said:
If the bearing surface is ahead of the neck/shoulder juncture at all, it is just fine. One thing is certain, the throat will not get shorter from shooting. If the bullet has to be seated below the neck/shoulder juncture, you may want lengthen the throat. The 223 cartridge is cursed with that very short neck so it is not real flexible.
As long as you are not neck turning, seating below the neck isn't too serious. If you are neck turning, the bullet does have to be located ahead of the corner. Regards, Bill.
Click to expand...

Bill, I guess I have been making bad ammo for years. I neck turn and will seat that boattail below the necks without worry on my mag fed rifles.

From the 223 to the 7RM for my hunting applications. Mag defines the OAL. Throat cut to best use that OAL. Bullets seated as need to get in that mag.

And 180gr Bergers are LOOONNNG. so are the 22cal 90gr VLD's - yep, stuffed them into my 223 Savage Shilen Tactical rifle (with chamber being debated).

MAN, that looks goofy but they shot very well all the way to 1200yds.

You have plenty of experience and I know you speak from your observations.

So far, neck turning and deep seating have not cause me any issues.

Dies on the other hand......

Jerry
 
Jerry,
The only reason it will cause issues is with the intrusion of the dreaded doughnut (remember that discussion?). If you keep the donut (alternative spelling) reamed out, you won't have any problem. Or if the donut is not sized and remains over bullet diameter, you won't have a problem.The ability to seat ahead of the neck shoulder juncture, hence ahead of the donut, means it is never a problem.
I always prefer to have the bullet in the neck, rather than in the powder space but that's just me. Regards, Bill.
 
Yep, that was a great exchange.

But that has as much to do with style of sizing die and brass flow/pressures as anything else.

Donuts are a concern but would be just another step in the basic case maintenance like trimming.

However, for most mag fed rifles, the cases rarely got shot as much as a competition rig so brass flow and the control of such is not as big a concern.

If it were, annealing would be another step and that is something to think about 4 firings in...

Jerry
 
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