Shot gun or rifle for bear defense?

[pazzo]

^^ Lol. If only that were true.

The ultimate bear defense gun is the Marlin 1895G, which is the .45-70 Guide Gun model.

Sure, 12 ga shotguns are fun and fast, but it is not going to penetrate and do the damage that a 450 gr handloaded .45-70 round will do. A charging Grizzly would have a very bad day if he were to be show with one of these. Mind you, I would have no issues shooting one with a 12 ga either, but given the choice, I'd choose the Marlin.

My 870 Police with 12.5" Dlask barrel is pretty nice, but nowhere near as light and agile as my 1895G. My Guide Gun is my primary bush gun and rightly so.

 

[Boomer]

in my opinion if you need a rifle for bear defence , the bear is too far away to be a threat.

The choice of a shotgun is fine if you are alone, and good quality slugs have proven to be good killers. But should you be responsible for the safety of other people or family members, the choice of a shotgun could leave you without influence on a situation, diminishing your status to that of an observer in the case of an emergency. It is not uncommon for a group of tourists to string out a couple of hundred yards, even though one does his best to keep them together, and workers on a construction or mining site, cannot have their activities unreasonably restricted. Similarly, the wife might be off picking berries and kids like to explore on their own, so you might not be in a position to help with a shotgun when trouble arises. So it is possible for a situation to occur where a defensive shot is a long shot.

A powerful rifle, particularly a big bore, has the advantage over the shotgun in terms of terminal performance. This is a function not only of higher velocity, but also of bullet construction and the rate of spin. The slug flies true due to a nose heavy attitude, but, particularly in the case of a Foster slug, should it strike it's target in a yaw, the soft lead will deform, the skirt will collapse and penetration is diminished. By contrast, a rifle bullet flies with a high rate of spin keeping it straight and minimizes yaw upon impact with the target or with a heavy bone during the penetration of that target. A bullet impacting at 2000 fps or better creates a larger shock-wave coming of it's expanded nose section, than does the shotgun slug which might only impact at 1500 fps or less depending on the load and the range it is fired from. Due to the soft construction of the slug, upon impact this velocity rapidly bleeds off to a sub-sonic level where no shock-wave is generated. A shock-wave has little effect on bone, although it can scatter a fragmented bone, but it is extremely destructive to soft tissue, enhances blood loss, and complicates the wound. A hard cast bullet from a big bore handgun or rifle also has an advantage over the shotgun slug with respect to shape, solid construction, and the rate of spin, even though the shock-wave is smaller due to the lower velocity. A sustained shock-wave pushes soft tissue out of the way, promoting deeper penetration.

 

[toxic]

One should elaborate. For example, 2 3/4 inch Brenneke Rottweil penetrate far better than any Winchester 3 inch foster slug. Certainly a Black Magic in 3 inch would technically be better than both. But lesser recoiling 2 3/4 slugs allow for faster recoil recovery, in case #2 or #3 is needed. Plus with extended magazines, one can usually fit just one more shorter slug in the tube. Some 12 gauge users choose 2 3/4 just in case to prevent the fired 3 inch hull from hanging up on ejection. This is not unknown out there, and the shorter round should be less prone to ejection port jamming. Something to think about....
Most people that use smoothbore shotguns for defence in the wild, would choose a full bore single round of ammo, versus a sabot round.

Just saying....

Valid point on smoothbores being the majority out there. Personally I use sabots in a rifled shotgun (mostly to hunt deer) so I'm a little biased.

I have not really done enough research with full bore slugs (other than 11/4 oz Federals) to comment on the other two you listed. However the expansion of the copper federal sabots slugs still gives me a very warm fuzzy feeling. I have taken around 35 whitetails with these and only ever recovered 2 slugs. Those recoveries were perfectly expanded. All other shots were through shots with no slug to recover. I have seen many full bore slugs stay inside deer. I do realize deer are much "softer" than polar bears but the point is that I like the idea of the slug penetrating a bit deeper with the smaller initial diameter than expanding to just over 12 guage diameter.

I think one thing we are in 100% agreement on is that nothing beats a 1 to 11/4 oz slug to knock down a dangerous bear sized animal. If it is truly self defense situation the shot will be close and it will be head shot - unless the shooter was taken totally by surprise.

 

[Brutus]

Yes toxic, were are definitely on the right track in our mindset friend.
Makes perfect sense using sabots in your rifled barrel, now you get maximum accuracy as well.
I myself have not as much shotgun experience with deer as yourself.
Nothing compares to been-there, done-that.
Myself, I only used the one brenneke for a complete through and through @75 yards. (my self-imposed max)

PS: Toxic, have you tried Winchester Supreme Partitions Golds with the Nosler bullet?
I have an M37 Ithaca with an M87 rifled barrel, and about 26 of these in 20 gauge, waiting for next season.
They seem to shoot very accurately & flat within reasonable range. FWIF on the internet, these may be a bit too hard for deer.
(a Lyman sabot slug mold is my next planned purchase)

Cheers!

 

[toxic]

PS: Toxic, have you tried Winchester Supreme Partitions Golds with the Nosler bullet?

Funny you should ask. One of my hunting partners had those this year and he was really excited about them. Unfortunately the performance of the slug depends on the shooter doing this part...which he didn't. Maybe next year...

 

[CreamySmooth]

Har.

 

[Brutus]

Funny you should ask. One of my hunting partners had those this year and he was really excited about them. Unfortunately the performance of the slug depends on the shooter doing this part...which he didn't. Maybe next year...

lol.........
Too bad for him. He's not the only one with unfilled tags. I never even got a chance to get a clear shot at one this year. That's okay though, the small game hunting kept me occupied in the meanwhile.

Have a good one!

 

[Boomer]

I think the choice of a rifled shotgun barrel is a step in the wrong direction in that you loose many of the benefits of choosing the shotgun for bear work in the first place. Cracker shells will explode in a rifled barrel, shot doesn't pattern, and although I don't know what effect a rifled tube has on a rubber slug, it raises the possibility of a failure.

 

[toxic]

I think the choice of a rifled shotgun barrel is a step in the wrong direction in that you loose many of the benefits of choosing the shotgun for bear work in the first place. Cracker shells will explode in a rifled barrel, shot doesn't pattern, and although I don't know what effect a rifled tube has on a rubber slug, it raises the possibility of a failure.

Agreed that bear bangers do not do well in a rifled barrel. Shot doesn't see use around polar bears (at least in Manitoba) but perhaps buckshot with smaller bears is feasible. I have never heard of anyone using rubber slugs on bears.

There are groups in Polar Bear country that will not use non-lethal options as a matter of policy. Problem is that bear bangers are only effective if you get them cracking between you and the bear. If you are not somewhat proficient with them and they go over the bear and he will run towards you and eat your face.

 

[StoneHorse]

This is just like a .270 Win v 30/06 thread.



Now back to our regular scheduled program........

 

[ol'harleyguy]

Howdy, Boomer has good advice for you! I lived there for 30 years and had quite a few different firearms-the two favourites were a 300 win. mag. and a 870 pump with the extension magazine.

When sheep-moose hunting or whatever, always had the 300 mag. as you never know when a Grizzly will surface-you could be above timberline spotting sheep and one could surface 50 ft. away that had been in a little depression-it is not as flat as it looks up there!

Lived a few miles north of Whitehorse-private area-back end of 20 acres-closest neighbour was 1/2 mile away through the bush.

Had a creek coming off the mountain and ran about 50 ft. from our back door which the animals would seem to follow-see the yard and walk where there was no bush.

Lived at that house for about 15 years-one year we saw 14 bears in the yard slowly passing through. 4 Grizz and 10 blacks-how many came by that we didn't see?

In all that time only shot one in the yard that wouldn't leave (shot a lot of warning shots over the years) -yelled at him-big dogs in the house barking and when I finally went out on the deck and told him what to do-he turned around at walked away about 30 yards stopped and came back towards me at a good clip.

Wife passed me the shotgun and at 10 yards pulled the trigger-instant spread eagle!

Brown/black - 6'6+ nose to tail-870-2 3/4 in.-federal slug. Bought them after reading the test in the Alaska Bear Tales book.

A few of the neihbours thanked me for getting rid of the Grizzly??? that had been after chickens etc.-just because of the color I guess.

Have shot ---------bears -black and Grizzly but all with the 300, was quite impressed with the 870 but that does not mean it would be that easy if this was to happen again? Later

 

[rodngun]

45-70 lever action marlin ftw

 

[Boomer]

Agreed that bear bangers do not do well in a rifled barrel. Shot doesn't see use around polar bears (at least in Manitoba) but perhaps buckshot with smaller bears is feasible. I have never heard of anyone using rubber slugs on bears.

There are groups in Polar Bear country that will not use non-lethal options as a matter of policy. Problem is that bear bangers are only effective if you get them cracking between you and the bear. If you are not somewhat proficient with them and they go over the bear and he will run towards you and eat your face.

Proficiency with any firearm loaded with any munition is a matter of training. practice, and nerve. If you drop a cracker shell on the far side of the bear, you might want to start thinking of other options.

note the cracker shell passing over the bear's back

As for shot, I saw a medium sized polar bear bear killed with a contact close blast of bird shot to the face as it tried to push its way into a house. I was quite happy birdshot was in that gun as we were in direct line, had he used a slug it would have exited with unpleasant consequences. I don't consider birdshot or a 30" goose gun to be the proper tools for bear work, but they worked that day. As I have said in earlier posts, buckshot as a very limited role in any discussion of bear defense, but it is a good choice in populated areas.

We use rubber slugs frequently, and they have proven to be a useful less-lethal tool when used in conjunction with cracker shells, particularly in cases where bears have been exposed to crackershells and have become desensitized to the noise. You just have to watch you don't get a hit directly on a bone or the ribs at very close range, but giving them a pinch on the butt is pretty effective. The next time they get cracker shelled, they recall that pinch and move off with less encouragement.

Fiocchi rubber baton rounds

bear injured by a close range hit with a rubber slug, in the ribs would probably have killed it

I personally don't carry a non-lethal option when I'm walking or guarding a group of people, but at work when we want to move a bear along before a problem arises, they are quite effective. But crackers are corrosive, so I won't use them in my guns. When I carry a shotgun, it is usually when I'm reasonably close to town and have concerns about over penetration of a rifle bullet.

 

[Wildcard91]

If you don't have a licence do shoot it until its really close because they do something called a bluff charge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bkwy0scRXBU

The woman is crazy but she makes a good point.

I don't understand what she's trying to prove. Just because you have a shotgun doesn't mean you have to resort to lethal force right away. You can avoid the whole bluff charge by firing a warning shot in a safe direction into the ground, or use a rubber slug like Boomer suggests. If a bear gets that close like it is in the video, I wouldn't wait to see if its bluffing or not.

Didn't someone try to make the same point with grizzly bears by living with them? Look at how that wound up...

The woman may be right 99% of the time with the black bears, but there's always that 1% "OH F%CK its too late, I'm a bear patty" factor. Better safe than bear food.

 

[TimC]

All you need is a firm word

 

[H4831]

In all seriousness he is very correct. I was working in Northern BC. I had my head down taking some samples. And I heard something to my right, I look up and there was a very large grizzly standing about 30 ft from me. I had a .308 with me so I grabbed it and fired 2 warning shoots above it, Nothing It started to come towards me so when it got to about 15ft I fired 2 rounds Center mass with a .308 nothing, I then put 1 in the head and dropped it at 9ft.
Other then some issues with wolves around my camps that is the only time I have had to use a weapon in self defence in the wild.
All fun in games aside you can never be 100% sure what a wild animal will do, I have encounter many bears in the wild most just avoid you but there is always that 1 that wont. This incident is why I was prompted to get a CCW, as I always complained about carrying that .308.

Mr. DeadShadow, I have a bit of trouble with your posting and your stated judgement on some things.
A big grizzly bear staring at you from a distance of 30 feet, places you in a very dangerous situation. Had he decided to charge, you may have gotten one shot off, probably pointed somewhere in the ski.
So you fired a warning shot over him. If that had triggered a charge, you likely wouldn't have chambered another cartridge in the rifle.
Ditto for the second warning shot.
Then two body hits at a distance of about fifteen feet also failed to either turn him back, or trigger a charge.
Now, here is what I can't understand.
In spite of there apparently being no results from two good body hits from a 308 at extremely close range, you have now opted to carry a handgun for grizzly bear defence!!!
I sure hope you don't have a real grizzly bear attack, while you are defending yourself with a handgun, because we will likely never get a chance to read about it.

 

[DeadShadow]

Mr. DeadShadow, I have a bit of trouble with your posting and your stated judgement on some things.
A big grizzly bear staring at you from a distance of 30 feet, places you in a very dangerous situation. Had he decided to charge, you may have gotten one shot off, probably pointed somewhere in the ski.
So you fired a warning shot over him. If that had triggered a charge, you likely wouldn't have chambered another cartridge in the rifle.
Ditto for the second warning shot.
Then two body hits at a distance of about fifteen feet also failed to either turn him back, or trigger a charge.
Now, here is what I can't understand.
In spite of there apparently being no results from two good body hits from a 308 at extremely close range, you have now opted to carry a handgun for grizzly bear defence!!!
I sure hope you don't have a real grizzly bear attack, while you are defending yourself with a handgun, because we will likely never get a chance to read about it.

First of I don’t really care if you believe my story or not because it happened, I was Just out of Fort Ware heading to Weissener Lake, take geological samples. I Had a M1A that was given to me buy my guides the distances where estimates. And yes I chose to carry a pistol with a rifle for self defence. And when I saw him he was not charging me. Got an Issue with that feel free to go to fort ware the pelt is in Donny Vansumers place.

 

[fat tony]

I would go with one of these - from the episode, the cartridges looked either like a .45 Schofield or .476

 

[purple]

All you need is a firm word

OK, but how would they react to a Brit accent?

Bears (at least the Blackies which I'm experienced with) are very curious. We used to see evidence of them being up in all of our tree stands. When they come into the bait they always seem to know that you are there. I had one do the same trick as the one in the video. The bugger got about half-way up the tree with me in the stand. I didn't want to shoot him, so I kept the rifle on him and spat my chewing gum in his face, and down the tree he went, about 187 times quicker than when he came up. How's that for an economical and effective bear defence strategy?

Bears will visit the bait in order of dominance with the bigger ones coming in towards last light. Any that are at the bait will run off, or be run off by a bigger bear. One of the scenarios that I didn't want to see was moma bear at the bait with a couple of cubs when a big old boar showed up. In that case she would most likely cuff them up the handiest tree. I just didn't want to be in that tree with a squealing cub in the branches above me with a PO'd moma below.

One evening I and a younger friend were up in the tree waiting for some action when he took out a jar of "Sow-in-Heat" bear attractant and started to unscrew the lid. I told him if he got any on himself, I'd need to shoot him to spare him from a fate worse than death.

 

[H4831]

First of I don’t really care if you believe my story or not because it happened, I was Just out of Fort Ware heading to Weissener Lake, take geological samples. I Had a M1A that was given to me buy my guides the distances where estimates. And yes I chose to carry a pistol with a rifle for self defence. And when I saw him he was not charging me. Got an Issue with that feel free to go to fort ware the pelt is in Donny Vansumers place.

Wow, slow down.
I didn't doubt your story. Any doubts on your actions would have been shooting a warning shot or two, at such close range. I would have shot him in the head, had I seen him staring at me at about thirty feet.
The other thing was you giving up the rifle for defence and carrying a hand gun, after seeing how two solid hits with a 308 didn't stop him. You stated you you now had a permit to carry and "Always complained about arrying that 308--," so I presumed you had given up the rifle for a handgun for defence.
I suppose you mean the hide is in Donny Van Somer's place. Don't know Donny, but I think he is the grand son of Art Van Somer, the river freighter, and I knew Art well.