Shot gun or rifle for bear defense?
- Thread starter stoop14
- Start date
- Location
- Behind You
Ya Donny is the Current chife in fort ware.
It really depends on your ammo...
If you want to consider regular every-day type ammuntion, then the rifle out-penetrates regular shotgun slugs or buckshot by a large margin. In my estimation, a lever action 30-30 has more killing power than a regular 12 gauge slug. Larger animals shot with slugs have a habit of dropping and then getting back up when they recover from the initial shock. Slugs deliver a whallop due to their weight but on larger animals they don't always penetrate deep enough to kill.
In my estimation a good bear defense cartridge would be something that throws a heavy bullet at a moderate velocity - you don't need 3000 fps when you can smell his breath. The lowly 30-30 penetrates exceptionally well just because it starts at a lower velocity and the bullet does not deform as quickly.
The best bear defense weapon would be whatever you have handy when it happens, of course. If that was a shotgun with slugs, I'd keep shooting until the gun was empty even if he dropped on the first shot. And then I'd reload and get ready for more. I'd rather have a open sighted 30 cal or larger rifle, and something like the 9.3x57 shooting 250 - 285 gr bullets at moderate velocity is my idea of a perfect bear defense weapon. Fast follow up, hits hard and penetrates far and fast. Hard to beat.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I'm thinking you have never tried the Brenneke Rottweil Classic slug in 12 gauge 2 3/4 inch variant.
Edit: I think it's easy to mistaken a more effective longer range, with stopping power at closer distances, for close defence as this thread is entitled.
We are comparing here a 30 calibre projectile to a 73 calibre projectile for use close up. The German one I mentioned is not a standard foster by any means, it is harder and designed since 1932 to outperform other designs.
Matter of fact the only one design that could outperform it then, was a Brenneke with a steel tip, made for settlers in East Africa.
Presently in south east coastal Alaska, during the salmon run, 30-30 ammunition is not in as great demand as are 12 gauge premium slugs. Thier sole purpose, for protection of fishermen along the wild streams and inlets. As are larger calibre rifles. (338/45-70)
When I was in Juneau, in May of 2000, (the salmon run was on) not one gunshop within city limits could keep these Brenneke slugs from flying off the shelves. I had to take thier word for it, that this was thier best selling ammo that time of year. In dwindling numbers on the shelves, also of a popular choice, was 45-70,405 grain Penetrators by Corbon, 338 and 44 Magnum using heavy premium bullets.(handgun carry)
Certainly in a tight spot, any 30-30 beats throwing rocks. But what we are talking about here is: best, better and also ran.............IMHO.
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Use a 12 ga., but hand-load dry-cell AA batteries....
Just not Energizers! I can't imagine trying to stop a polar bear that just keeps on going and going and going......
I'm thinking you missed the part of my post where I said "regular every day type ammunition"?
I said that because regular slugs don't penetrate worth s**t. I don't know what was selling in Juneau in 2000... but i can tell you what's used in Anchorage and surrounding area during the salmon run for the last 3 years i've been there, and shotguns weren't very popular. Short rifles and handguns outnumber shotguns by quite a margin.
as an aside, there have been studies done and the best available cartridge for bear is a 458 win mag with 500g bullets. it seems as though over forty caliber and 2000 - 2200 fps with a heavy for caliber bullet is best for any dangerous game.
tactical lever
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Fox Creek, Alberta
I'm curious; why all the talk of extreme penetration being needed for a defensive shot (full frontal)? I'm assuming we're not going to be taking raking or quartering shots. If I hit a bear in the chest at close range, what would I care if it ends up in it's rear end? That's not where I want the energy dumped.
Under normal(?) circumstances I would prefer 45-70 type rounds or other smaller cals throwing heavy bullets. If I was sleeping in a tent or anticipating a 10 yard or under type encounter I would be tempted to lean towards large buckshot. Not for any perceived energy advantage (it won't beat a properly loaded 45-70) but for the imediate damage within the first few inches of penetration. Primarily head and neck with a slightly greater chance of putting a lethal ball in the brain. Also considering the off chance that even a poor shot may give it unusable jaws (or less paw) if it does end up on top of me.
For the largest bear which the vast majority aren't going to be dealing with, back to the rifles, preferably .358 and up.
Thoughts on my choices?
Under normal(?) circumstances I would prefer 45-70 type rounds or other smaller cals throwing heavy bullets. If I was sleeping in a tent or anticipating a 10 yard or under type encounter I would be tempted to lean towards large buckshot. Not for any perceived energy advantage (it won't beat a properly loaded 45-70) but for the imediate damage within the first few inches of penetration. Primarily head and neck with a slightly greater chance of putting a lethal ball in the brain. Also considering the off chance that even a poor shot may give it unusable jaws (or less paw) if it does end up on top of me.
For the largest bear which the vast majority aren't going to be dealing with, back to the rifles, preferably .358 and up.
Thoughts on my choices?
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Nobody told the bear that being shot in the chest is fatal, so until he figures it out, you could be in for a bad time. It all depends on how long it takes for his brain to run out of oxygen and die. A bear has to touch you in order to hurt you, so the purpose of shooting then is to stop his forward progression towards you. The primary difference between hunting and bear defense is time, hunting provides a comparatively leisurely time frame to make the shot and for the damage caused by that shot to take effect. If it takes several minutes for the bear to expire that doesn't have much effect on us, but it could have a huge effect on us when we are forced to shoot defensively from very short range.
Energy dump doesn't have much to do with killing an animal. The bullet can only destroy that which it passes through, so the deeper it penetrates the more complicated and less survivable the wound becomes; the volume of blood is lost more rapidly, and the more rapid the blood loss, sooner the brain dies. If the bullet breaks large supporting bones on its trajectory through the bear, all the better, as this will interfere with the bear's mobility and give you time for a follow-up. But clearly it is better if after smashing though that dense heavy bone, the bullet continues to pass through any soft tissue that lies beyond it. While the bullet is supersonic, soft tissue is pushed aside by the shock-wave that comes off the expanded nose section, that tissue is crushed and pulped, which again increases the volume of blood loss. But the shock-wave has little effect on bone other than to scatter fragments that were already created by the impact of the bullet. If that scattering of bone fragments contributes to additional bleeding, so much the better.
As for buckshot for use in a contact close shooting situation as may occur in a tent, there are a few considerations to keep in mind. Buckshot will not penetrate more than a few inches, seldom more than a foot, and this is good if your tent is located in a crowded camp ground. Because the shot column is still tightly packed on impact, the pattern does not give you any margin of error over a solid slug or a bullet, but with a solid hit, it will work under these circumstances.
When a bear comes straight in, the head shot can be viable if the bears head has little lateral movement and if the shooter remembers where the brain is. A big bear has a massive head and it can be difficult for the inexperienced to understand that the brain is only the width of the snout when the bear is nearly 2' between the ears. Just shooting him anywhere in the head might not produce the desired results. If the bear comes in a rush, spineing him might be an easier and surer shot.
In terms of cartridges that are suitable for bear defense, all things being equal, the larger the frontal area of the bullet, the more damage it does as it passes through living tissue. Thus .30 is better than .20, .40 is better than 30, and .50 is better than .40. But as bullet weight and diameter increases, one approaches the point of diminishing returns in terms of a gun's portability and handiness and in one's ability to use if effectively. Thus, in some cases a .30/30 lever gun might be a better choice than a .460 Weatherby.
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tactical lever
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Fox Creek, Alberta
All very true. I was basing my choices on range and animal size. Totally agree on portability/recoil issues. Now after all this bear debate I must find a substantial target for buckshot! Or maybe just concede that you are ten times the outdoorsman. According to one fellow when I was picking some up, it goes fairly quickly in bear season, but around here there wouldn't be too much else besides medium size blacks.
I would love to come up to your country to have a look around. What are the seasons like for bear up there? I would bring the guide gun.
I would love to come up to your country to have a look around. What are the seasons like for bear up there? I would bring the guide gun.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
While there is no hunting season on polar bears, you can usually see them when they come off the sea ice in late June. Last summer was like fall time, we had bears all over the place; the standing joke was that Churchill's new bear season was July! I think we saw 15 different bears in one day over a 25 mile stretch of ground. Most people come up at the end of October to the middle of November to view them from the tundra buggies.
Black bear are found inside the tree line once get a few miles inland from the coast, and that provides the only bear hunting opportunity available here. A pal of mine had a cinnamon bear at his cabin across the river last summer, and we occasionally get a black bear around our cabin south-east of here. The season is similar to what you have down south. There's one guy up here who likes to poke em with arrows. Most black bears are shot over bait, which allows the stand to be at the optimum distance for the buckshot. I always have a few rounds of the stuff in my side-saddle, but I don't use it by choice, except when minimizing penetration is an important consideration.
Apparently there is a small grizzly population here as well; it got enough attention that the province has protected them. I've lived here for over 20 years and I haven't seen a track, but they've been seen spotted by folks in helicopters and light planes, both to the north and the south-east. I'll keep looking; I'd love to see an established Manitoba grizzly population.
Black bear are found inside the tree line once get a few miles inland from the coast, and that provides the only bear hunting opportunity available here. A pal of mine had a cinnamon bear at his cabin across the river last summer, and we occasionally get a black bear around our cabin south-east of here. The season is similar to what you have down south. There's one guy up here who likes to poke em with arrows. Most black bears are shot over bait, which allows the stand to be at the optimum distance for the buckshot. I always have a few rounds of the stuff in my side-saddle, but I don't use it by choice, except when minimizing penetration is an important consideration.
Apparently there is a small grizzly population here as well; it got enough attention that the province has protected them. I've lived here for over 20 years and I haven't seen a track, but they've been seen spotted by folks in helicopters and light planes, both to the north and the south-east. I'll keep looking; I'd love to see an established Manitoba grizzly population.
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Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
It's interesting that a small grizzly bear population is there, I guess on the shores of Jame's Bay right Boomer?
Okak Island just off mainland Labrador, once had a small population of barren ground grizzly as well according to old skulls & bones found there. In the mid-1990s the Canadian magazine Equinox, did a story on these bears. Apparrently one very old Inuit elder remembers himself and another man went hunting these bears on Okak Island, a few years before WW2(?) While he was tracking it, he himself was ambushed and his hunting companion barely saved his life, killing the attacking grizzly bear.
According to Hudson Bay records, a small HBC store in Northern Quebec, somewhere on the shores of Ungava Bay, recorded grizzly bear hides brought in during the late 1880s. It was recorded in thier ledgers. They were few and far between even then.
The bear hides where said to be smaller than polar bear, and mostly greyish brown in color.
Okak Island just off mainland Labrador, once had a small population of barren ground grizzly as well according to old skulls & bones found there. In the mid-1990s the Canadian magazine Equinox, did a story on these bears. Apparrently one very old Inuit elder remembers himself and another man went hunting these bears on Okak Island, a few years before WW2(?) While he was tracking it, he himself was ambushed and his hunting companion barely saved his life, killing the attacking grizzly bear.
According to Hudson Bay records, a small HBC store in Northern Quebec, somewhere on the shores of Ungava Bay, recorded grizzly bear hides brought in during the late 1880s. It was recorded in thier ledgers. They were few and far between even then.
The bear hides where said to be smaller than polar bear, and mostly greyish brown in color.
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a .223 cause it's the awesomist killer of big game and army mens uses it. Theys call it the 5.56 nato cus i kno i seen it on the internet saying so. Hop this helps save yus from big bad bears cus thems dangerous and everybody gets attacked evry time theys go out in the woods.
