I think you're thinking of the 1997 North Hollywood shootout:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout
Neither of the shooters in the FBI Miami shootout were wearing body amour:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
.40 S&W vs. 9mm
- Thread starter greyhulk
- Start date
I think you're thinking of the 1997 North Hollywood shootout:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout
Neither of the shooters in the FBI Miami shootout were wearing body amour:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
All it did was make the FBI search for a new cartridge and sidearm. The 10mm was chosen because it was/is the greatest semi-auto combat and defense cartridge around
. It's certainly not for everyone though, they eventually watered down their 10mm load then S&W duplicated the "10mm lite's" performance in a smaller cartridge which in turn meant the guns shooting it could be smaller.
In the aftermath of the 1986 FBI Miami shootout, the FBI started the process of testing 9mm and .45 ACP ammunition in preparation to replace its standard issue revolver with a semi-automatic pistol. The semi-automatic pistol offered two distinct advantages over the revolver: 1) the automatic offered increased ammunition capacity, and 2) it was easier to reload during a gunfight. The FBI was satisfied with performance of its .38 Special +P 158gr LSWCHP cartridge ("FBI load") based on decades of dependable performance. Ammunition for the new automatic pistol had to deliver terminal performance equal or superior to the .38 Special FBI Load. The FBI developed a series of practically oriented tests involving eight test events that reasonably represented the kinds of situations that FBI agents commonly encounter in shooting incidents.
During tests of 9mm and .45 ACP ammunition, FBI Firearms Training Unit Special Agent in Charge John Hall decided to include tests of the 10mm cartridge, supplying his personally owned Colt Delta Elite 10mm semi-automatic, and personally handloading 10mm ammunition. The FBI's tests revealed that a 170-180gr JHP 10mm bullet, propelled between 900-1000 fps, achieved desired terminal performance without the heavy recoil associated with conventional 10mm ammunition (1300-1400 fps). The FBI contacted Smith & Wesson and requested it to design a handgun to FBI specifications, based on the existing large-frame S&W 4506 .45 ACP handgun, that would reliably function with the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm ammunition. During this collaboration with the FBI, S&W realized that downloading the 10mm full power to meet the FBI medium velocity specification meant less powder and more airspace in the case. They found that by removing the airspace they could shorten the 10mm case enough to fit within their medium-frame 9mm handguns and load it with a 180gr JHP bullet to produce ballistic performance identical to the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm cartridge. S&W then teamed with Winchester to produce a new cartridge, the .40 S&W. It uses a small pistol primer whereas the 10mm cartridge uses a large pistol primer.
The .40 S&W cartridge debuted January 17, 1990 along with the new Smith & Wesson Model 4006 pistol, although it was several months before the pistols were available for purchase. Austrian manufacturer Glock Ges.m.b.H. beat Smith & Wesson to the dealer shelves in 1990, with pistols chambered in .40 S&W (the Glock 22 and 23) which were announced a week before the 4006.[6] Glock's rapid introduction was aided by its engineering of a pistol chambered in 10 mm Auto, the Glock 20, only a short time earlier. Since the .40 S&W uses the same bore diameter and case head as the 10 mm Auto, it was merely a matter of adapting the 10 mm design to the shorter 9x19mm frames. The new guns and ammunition were an immediate success.[7][8]
The 40 S&W case length and overall cartridge length are shortened, but other dimensions except case web and wall thickness remain identical to the 10mm Auto. Both cartridges headspace on the mouth of the case. Thus in a semi-auto they are not interchangeable. Fired from a 10mm pistol the .40 Smith & Wesson cartridge will headspace on the extractor and the bullet will jump a .142 inch freebore just like a .38 Special fired from a .357 Magnum pistol. If the cartridge is not held by the extractor, the chances for a ruptured primer are great.[9] Smith and Wesson does make a double action revolver that can fire either at will using moon clips. A single-action revolver in the 38-40 chambering can also be modified to fire the .40 or the 10 mm if it has an extra cylinder. Most .40 caliber handguns can be easily converted to 9mm for cheaper target shooting with a simple barrel and magazine swap.[10][11]
IMI attempted a similar cartridge in the 1980s, called the .41 Action Express (or .41 AE) for the Jericho 941 pistol.[7] This cartridge was based on a new proprietary case with a 9mm base and 41 caliber suitable main case body. The .41 AE is ballistically similar to the .40 S&W, to the point that some reloading manuals suggest using .40 S&W load data in the .41 AE. The .41 AE was a poor design because the small rim and larger and higher energy .41 case beats the 9mm rim/base up badly. Case life for reloading is relatively short. The .41 AE is for all intents and purposes, now an obsolete and difficult to obtain caliber. The .41 AE uses 0.410-inch (10.4 mm) bullets, whereas the .40 S&W uses 0.400-inch (10.2 mm) bullets. However, as it lacks the backing of ammunition manufacturers in making .410 caliber bullets suited to semi-automatic pistols, the .41 AE has not achieved widespread popularity.[12
Heres my copy and paste
During tests of 9mm and .45 ACP ammunition, FBI Firearms Training Unit Special Agent in Charge John Hall decided to include tests of the 10mm cartridge, supplying his personally owned Colt Delta Elite 10mm semi-automatic, and personally handloading 10mm ammunition. The FBI's tests revealed that a 170-180gr JHP 10mm bullet, propelled between 900-1000 fps, achieved desired terminal performance without the heavy recoil associated with conventional 10mm ammunition (1300-1400 fps). The FBI contacted Smith & Wesson and requested it to design a handgun to FBI specifications, based on the existing large-frame S&W 4506 .45 ACP handgun, that would reliably function with the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm ammunition. During this collaboration with the FBI, S&W realized that downloading the 10mm full power to meet the FBI medium velocity specification meant less powder and more airspace in the case. They found that by removing the airspace they could shorten the 10mm case enough to fit within their medium-frame 9mm handguns and load it with a 180gr JHP bullet to produce ballistic performance identical to the FBI's reduced velocity 10mm cartridge. S&W then teamed with Winchester to produce a new cartridge, the .40 S&W. It uses a small pistol primer whereas the 10mm cartridge uses a large pistol primer.
The .40 S&W cartridge debuted January 17, 1990 along with the new Smith & Wesson Model 4006 pistol, although it was several months before the pistols were available for purchase. Austrian manufacturer Glock Ges.m.b.H. beat Smith & Wesson to the dealer shelves in 1990, with pistols chambered in .40 S&W (the Glock 22 and 23) which were announced a week before the 4006.[6] Glock's rapid introduction was aided by its engineering of a pistol chambered in 10 mm Auto, the Glock 20, only a short time earlier. Since the .40 S&W uses the same bore diameter and case head as the 10 mm Auto, it was merely a matter of adapting the 10 mm design to the shorter 9x19mm frames. The new guns and ammunition were an immediate success.[7][8]
The 40 S&W case length and overall cartridge length are shortened, but other dimensions except case web and wall thickness remain identical to the 10mm Auto. Both cartridges headspace on the mouth of the case. Thus in a semi-auto they are not interchangeable. Fired from a 10mm pistol the .40 Smith & Wesson cartridge will headspace on the extractor and the bullet will jump a .142 inch freebore just like a .38 Special fired from a .357 Magnum pistol. If the cartridge is not held by the extractor, the chances for a ruptured primer are great.[9] Smith and Wesson does make a double action revolver that can fire either at will using moon clips. A single-action revolver in the 38-40 chambering can also be modified to fire the .40 or the 10 mm if it has an extra cylinder. Most .40 caliber handguns can be easily converted to 9mm for cheaper target shooting with a simple barrel and magazine swap.[10][11]
IMI attempted a similar cartridge in the 1980s, called the .41 Action Express (or .41 AE) for the Jericho 941 pistol.[7] This cartridge was based on a new proprietary case with a 9mm base and 41 caliber suitable main case body. The .41 AE is ballistically similar to the .40 S&W, to the point that some reloading manuals suggest using .40 S&W load data in the .41 AE. The .41 AE was a poor design because the small rim and larger and higher energy .41 case beats the 9mm rim/base up badly. Case life for reloading is relatively short. The .41 AE is for all intents and purposes, now an obsolete and difficult to obtain caliber. The .41 AE uses 0.410-inch (10.4 mm) bullets, whereas the .40 S&W uses 0.400-inch (10.2 mm) bullets. However, as it lacks the backing of ammunition manufacturers in making .410 caliber bullets suited to semi-automatic pistols, the .41 AE has not achieved widespread popularity.[12
Heres my copy and paste
I bought my first pistol in 40 and never looked back. Though I started shooting to join IPSC. I have shot 9mm, but never owned one. A have 40s and 45s. If you reload 40s will feel like 9s. And extra cost is minimal. I like 40s cause you can load em real light or real hot. 40 is definatly my fav. Did I mention I like 40 cal?
RememberTheSomme
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Good post GunGuy.
easyrider604
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Greater Vancouver, BC
I use the same shellholder to reload 9mm and 40 S&W. Head diameter is larger on the 40 but the web on both 9mm and 40cal is the same.
The larger head diameter on the 40 should help insure more reliable extraction as the extractor hook has more metal on the head to grab onto, not that the 9mm extracts less reliably. I doubt the larger head on the .40 could result in higher casing strength than that of the 9mm, if at all.
Pressure of both cartridges are very similar, in the 30,000 psi range.
I am curious to know if the extractor and ejector of 9mm pistols are interchangeable with the 40 cal counterparts in a similar pistol.
The larger head diameter on the 40 should help insure more reliable extraction as the extractor hook has more metal on the head to grab onto, not that the 9mm extracts less reliably. I doubt the larger head on the .40 could result in higher casing strength than that of the 9mm, if at all.
Pressure of both cartridges are very similar, in the 30,000 psi range.
I am curious to know if the extractor and ejector of 9mm pistols are interchangeable with the 40 cal counterparts in a similar pistol.
What to do, what to do.....
Unless you reload or need a .40 S&W for competition [ie. make major] then go with the 9mm.
My first centerfire semi-auto, ~ 30 years ago, was a WWII era USGI 1911A1 in .45ACP. This of course, was before .40 S&W +/or 10mm existed. In my case, a pistol in 9mm eventually followed..... a Beretta 92S, then a S&W 59... and many years later after a few different Berettas, S&W's of various generations, some CZ's, I settled on the Browning HP MkIII in 9mm.
Being an original 1911 guy, I like that platform. So, I have it/them in .45ACP, 9mm, and 10mm [Colt Delta - that I also have a .40 S&W barrel fitted to].
Most of my .40S&W shooting has been with a Glock 22, though. Literally thousands of rounds. Works for me and I still have one. I also shoot the .40 in a S&W 4006 and a BHP MkIII, too. I like it but then I can reload for anything I shoot.
If I was just starting out and didn't reload then I'd go with something in a 9mm........
My .02
NAA.
Unless you reload or need a .40 S&W for competition [ie. make major] then go with the 9mm.
My first centerfire semi-auto, ~ 30 years ago, was a WWII era USGI 1911A1 in .45ACP. This of course, was before .40 S&W +/or 10mm existed. In my case, a pistol in 9mm eventually followed..... a Beretta 92S, then a S&W 59... and many years later after a few different Berettas, S&W's of various generations, some CZ's, I settled on the Browning HP MkIII in 9mm.
Being an original 1911 guy, I like that platform. So, I have it/them in .45ACP, 9mm, and 10mm [Colt Delta - that I also have a .40 S&W barrel fitted to].
Most of my .40S&W shooting has been with a Glock 22, though. Literally thousands of rounds. Works for me and I still have one. I also shoot the .40 in a S&W 4006 and a BHP MkIII, too. I like it but then I can reload for anything I shoot.
If I was just starting out and didn't reload then I'd go with something in a 9mm........
My .02
NAA.
