German mg 08 help with markings

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Griz327

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I'v got a dewat mg 08 and I was trying to find out what the marking on the top plate mean but am having no luck. I thought maybe someone here might have an idea. reads like this

29847
M.G.0.8
D.W.M
Berlin.
1917
M.G.S.S.A.B.T18
1.KOMP.


9847

47

The last two lines of the main group starting with M.G.S looks to have been stamped in by hand after manufacture. Anybody have expertise in this area?
 
Hi, Griz327! Welcome aboard!

As to your gun....

29847 is the serial of the gun for that plant in that year.

9847 will be marked on major components to ensure that the right parts are asembled to the right gun: makes for better reliability, even with relatively-interchangeable components. The 47 will be marked on minor parts.

MG '08 is the type of gun: Maschinengewehr 1908 (Machine Gun 1908)

DWM is the factory that made it: Deutsche Waffen-und-Munitionsfabriken (German Weapons and Munitions Factories)

Berlin is where the plant was located. It was taken over by the Allies following the Great War, broken up and the equipment dispersed all over Europe. Most of the drawings and papers from the design department made it to Holland and provided the basis for a lot of later development.

1917 is the year this gun was built.

Now we get to the hand-stamped markings, which are more than just a bit interesting. I really think that it should be parsed as "MGSS Abt. 18, Komp. 1", likely "Maschinengewehr Scharfschutzen Abteilung 18, Kompagnie 1": Company 1 of the 18th machine-gun section which likely was playing a very serious game protecting assault troops.

Hope this is of some help. Likely there will be someone on shortly to point out where I'm wrong.

Have fun!
.
 
post some pictures as well if you can. it's always nice to see other peoples collections and new arrivals.
 
smellie said:
Hi, Griz327! Welcome aboard!

As to your gun....

29847 is the serial of the gun for that plant in that year.

9847 will be marked on major components to ensure that the right parts are asembled to the right gun: makes for better reliability, even with relatively-interchangeable components. The 47 will be marked on minor parts.

MG '08 is the type of gun: Maschinengewehr 1908 (Machine Gun 1908)

DWM is the factory that made it: Deutsche Waffen-und-Munitionsfabriken (German Weapons and Munitions Factories)

Berlin is where the plant was located. It was taken over by the Allies following the Great War, broken up and the equipment dispersed all over Europe. Most of the drawings and papers from the design department made it to Holland and provided the basis for a lot of later development.

1917 is the year this gun was built.

Now we get to the hand-stamped markings, which are more than just a bit interesting. I really think that it should be parsed as "MGSS Abt. 18, Komp. 1", likely "Maschinengewehr Scharfschutzen Abteilung 18, Kompagnie 1": Company 1 of the 18th machine-gun section which likely was playing a very serious game protecting assault troops.

Hope this is of some help. Likely there will be someone on shortly to point out where I'm wrong.

Have fun!
.
Click to expand...

Wow thankyou very much. So would there be significance to the hand parsed markings. I'll post some pics right away.
 
5327100101_5a6b3e7a2e_o.jpg
 
If you do the digging work, the hand-stamped markings will lead you directly to the small section, likely under 40 men, who used this gun against our troops in the final year of the Great War.

The November 11 Armistice was precisely what the word means: ARMISTICE. It's Latin and it means "the weapons are still". It was NOT the end of the War. It was a CEASEFIRE for 30 days. In order to keep it going as a ceasefire, the exhausted, 'flu-ridden Imperial German Army had to divest itself of a stupendous amount of equipment, including 50,000 of these guns. Many of these guns were distributed as trophies around the various Commonwealth countries after first being deactivated to the accepted standard of that time...... which means that they are LEGALLY still deactivated today, although the Authorities will definitely tell you differently. They want to apply 21st-Century standards to an early-20th-Century situation. The gun is a legal deact by the original standard, therefore it remains such today: you cannot 'destroy' the same object twice and this one already has been destroyed. Generally, this deactivation was accomplished by removing the "lock" (breech block) and the feed block of the gun, as has been done on yours. Damage to the right-hand spade grip likely was done as it was being hauled around and shipped; you can repair that without altering the deact status of the gun.

The Great War only ENDED in May of 1919 with the signing of the Versailles Treaties (there were a whole set of these) just outside Paris. THAT was when the German High Seas Fleet, safely at anchor in Scapa Flow in Scotland, sank itself, battle flags flying, to avoid the disgrace of surrender. Following the peace treaty, the British Army, Newfoundland leading, marched into Cologne, effectively demilitarising the Rhineland.

The stage now was set for the destruction of the German economy,the eventual reconstruction of the country, albeit very slowly...... and the rise of the National Socialists under multi-decorated war hero Adolf Hitler. But that is another story.

Your gun is a part of, and a surviving witness to, the worst single war in human history.

Hope this helps.
.
 
smellie said:
If you do the digging work, the hand-stamped markings will lead you directly to the small section, likely under 40 men, who used this gun against our troops in the final year of the Great War.

The November 11 Armistice was precisely what the word means: ARMISTICE. It's Latin and it means "the weapons are still". It was NOT the end of the War. It was a CEASEFIRE for 30 days. In order to keep it going as a ceasefire, the exhausted, 'flu-ridden Imperial German Army had to divest itself of a stupendous amount of equipment, including 50,000 of these guns. Many of these guns were distributed as trophies around the various Commonwealth countries after first being deactivated to the accepted standard of that time...... which means that they are LEGALLY still deactivated today, although the Authorities will definitely tell you differently. They want to apply 21st-Century standards to an early-20th-Century situation. The gun is a legal deact by the original standard, therefore it remains such today: you cannot 'destroy' the same object twice and this one already has been destroyed. Generally, this deactivation was accomplished by removing the "lock" (breech block) and the feed block of the gun, as has been done on yours. Damage to the right-hand spade grip likely was done as it was being hauled around and shipped; you can repair that without altering the deact status of the gun.

The Great War only ENDED in May of 1919 with the signing of the Versailles Treaties (there were a whole set of these) just outside Paris. THAT was when the German High Seas Fleet, safely at anchor in Scapa Flow in Scotland, sank itself, battle flags flying, to avoid the disgrace of surrender. Following the peace treaty, the British Army, Newfoundland leading, marched into Cologne, effectively demilitarising the Rhineland.

The stage now was set for the destruction of the German economy,the eventual reconstruction of the country, albeit very slowly...... and the rise of the National Socialists under multi-decorated war hero Adolf Hitler. But that is another story.

Your gun is a part of, and a surviving witness to, the worst single war in human history.

Hope this helps.
.
Click to expand...

Absoloutly! Thankyou very much. Where could someone start to look for more info on the hand stamped markings?
And Thanks again you have been a huge help already.
 
Thanks for sharing!
If you don't have a copy of "The Devil's Paintbrush", a Collector Grade Publications book, get it.
It is my understanding that there is an inventory of all trophy weapons brought back from Europe. The data recorded often includes information about when, where, and by whom they were captured.
Personally, I wouldn't do any refinishing or aggressive cleaning. I would try to find a fusee spring cover, etc, to make it externally complete.
Back in the '60s, I met a chap who took out a machinegun nest. Chucked in a grenade, went in with the bayonet. Grenade fragments wounded the gunner, damaged the right side of the gun including the feed. Gunner got off the single round in the chamber, which went through Jimmy's left hand, mangling it and his rifle. It is my understanding that the MG is in a Legion in SW Ontario.
 
P08 Luger pistols were issued extensively to MG companies as personal weapons and are regimentally marked in the same way that the MGs were. If you do some research into unit markings on WW1 vintage Lugers it will be a big help in connecting the dots.

I once owned a DWM 1916 Luger with unit markings. I found the original Intelligence Documents in the NDHQ Library which enabled me identify the regiment and it's higher divisional formation. I then cross-referenced to the Canadian official history of WW1 and found where and when that German Division had been in contact with the Cdn Corps. From that I deduced the likely capture date and location for the pistol and assumed that a Canadian veteran had brought it home as a souvenir.
 
Not Maxim related, but when cleaning up a P08 (1938), I found scratched inside one grip "July 10 43 Avola Sicily". RCR went ashore at Pachino, 20 miles from Avola. Avola was in front of a British unit, 5th Armoured, I believe. So it probably wasn't taken by a Canadian. I believe I know who captured it, but he had died, and so had the last owner.
 
griz327

Heres a bit more about your MG08 unit designate.

I believe that Smellie is correct regarding the Mg-08 unit designate and here is why.

Normally Abteilung is abbreviated in German unit mark designates as A or Abt, your MG-08 is MGSS A.B.T18 1 Komp, if the hand stamping was on anything other than an Machine Gun the A.B.T18 would signify seperate designates due to the periods following the A.and the B.

With MG-08's the ABT is read together, field armorers had the task to hand stamp the unit designates into the arms, MGSS A.B.T18 1 Komp is correctly identified to a machine gun sharpshooters abteilung or formation. the MGSS is not a common unit mark on a pistol or a rifle (pistolen/Gewehr) however on a machine gun the MGSS Abt goes up to #79 Number18 is not a common Abteilung but #78 is so please check to see if you are reading the Abt. number correctly.

The field armorers did not always follow the marking instructions according to the given instructions, your MG-08 would have been assigned to one of the 251 infantry divisions in the Kaisers army.

If possible can you post a good clear photo of the unit mark as the 18thAbteilung is not listed, I need to know for sure if in fact their is indeed periods after the A.B.t-18, not mistrusting you but it is very important with respect to unravelling unit marks.

As you can see by my avtar Imperial lugers are my thing and unit marks are icing on the cake, not all lugers are unit marked, MGSS unit marked lugers are really scarce, the MG-08's are not, respecting the other gentlemens posts by 1916 and 1917 unit marks were becoming obsolete on small arms.lugers, gewehrs,bayonnets and such other small arms.

I'll do some more checking in my spare time to see in fact if the unit mark is correctly identified and see if I can find out some unit history for you, have patience as work lots.
 
Thank you for posting this really beautiful piece of history. If it were me I would keep it as is. I think sometimes when we leave things the way they are it increases the historical effect, so to speak. My friend has one as well, looks great on his shelf. Hav to see if I can find a pic. Thanks again for showing.
 
A bit more info on your gun. It was captured in actions during August 26, 27 and 28 of 1918, N.W. of Villers-lez-Cagincourt and sent to the Moose Jaw Sask. Legion as a war trophy. Sorry, don't know who captured it but will try and find out. :)##
Enjoy
 
war trophies

Wheaty mentioned war trophies and here is the link to war trophies awarded to the various provinces after the war.
Some very interesting reading that makes you wonder where they all went to.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=4a239682a58c196819747bd91027d4ddfcf5abd951b9c4d5
 
wonderful thread. It is hard to imagine how really stupid the gun laws in this country are. I'm sorry for derailing this thread a bit, but how could anyone think that deactivating that old gun again does anything but destroy real history.
 
wheaty said:
A bit more info on your gun. It was captured in actions during August 26, 27 and 28 of 1918, N.W. of Villers-lez-Cagincourt and sent to the Moose Jaw Sask. Legion as a war trophy. Sorry, don't know who captured it but will try and find out. :)##
Enjoy
Click to expand...

WOW!!!!! Thankyou soo much that is way more info than I ever though I would get. I sure came to the right place.
 
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