Best non-res SHTF gun?

greg11 said:
I know the sub 2000 was kinda made fun of earlier. But it got me thinking.

Like, the .223 was devised so that soldiers could carry more ammunition on patrol, from what I've read. So I'm wondering, how much 9mm vs. .223 would you carry. Weight wise I wonder how much 200 rounds weighs of each.

Also, while it would suck to find yourself in a long range engagement (I call long range 75+ yards, practically speaking), the likelihood of such an engagement is small compared to a CQB sort of situation. This, in my opinion levels the playing field for the sub 2000. Under 80 yards, it holds its own, does it not?

I just really don't think people are going to seriously find themselves in the long range engagements they think they are. This makes all this .223 and .308 talk a bunch of #### measuring. lol Nothin wrong with a sub2000 or even a shotgun IMO.
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Again, STOP mentioning shotguns, this thread is for non res RIFLES.

Loaded 124gr 9mm weights the same per round as 55gr .223/5.56. pistol calibre firearms are anemic compared to centre fire rifles. Handgun calibres belong in handguns.

As for the "long range engagement" issue. I would tend to agree that the potential for such an event is slim. Although slim it is a possibility and therefore I choose to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. On another note, distance is your friend. Short range or CQB style fights are more dependent on surprise than skill, and having the element of surprise is not a definite thing. Your skill level is something you (should) know intimately and it cannot be taken away like the element of surprise. Longer range engagements depend heavily on skill level. 75+ yards is far from long range but its better than across the room.

TDC
 
It isn't long range in terms of what the platform can do, I know. I think in terms of military skirmishes, 75-80+ yards actually represents a close in engagement. I remember reading an article by a Vietnam vet about what the war was really like. He said he never really ever saw the enemy. No one he knew ever did. The firefights they did get into were often engagements where the US guys didn't have a fekkin clue where the Vietnamese were shooting from, the Vietnamese would break contact, and it was over. He said the couple of times he could see his enemy, it was out at 150-200 yards.

So, yeah in war it seems that sub 8- yard warfare is sort of unlikely. I had my mind mixed up on my point...
 
I am thinking of getting a rifled shotgun barrel for my 870, has anyone used one of them with full caliber slugs, if so did you use rifled slugs or reloads or did you use the expensive sub caliber saboted slugs. I was thinking if you had good sights you could stretch it out to 200 yards or so with full caliber slugs, if you got the right slug.
 
fat tony said:
I am thinking of getting a rifled shotgun barrel for my 870, has anyone used one of them with full caliber slugs, if so did you use rifled slugs or reloads or did you use the expensive sub caliber saboted slugs. I was thinking if you had good sights you could stretch it out to 200 yards or so with full caliber slugs, if you got the right slug.
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Try another part of the forum. Black and Green Shotguns comes to mind.
I think 100 yards is about as far as you'd really want to push a slug.
And you don't use rifled slugs in a rifled barrel.
 
Again, depending on scenario, I would take my P90 barreled to NR.

I can easily carry 6 extra magazines in a backpack, with tons of supplies such as food, water, camping supplies, because the magazines only weigh a pound loaded with 50 rounds (In the US of course, not Canada). ;)

So with 7 magazines, I can carry 350 rounds in loaded magazines for the weight of about 7lbs total, plus the gun which is 6.5 lbs, you are only carrying a total of 13.5 lbs in a compact system, which leaves you a huge amount of room for carrying all the other essentials of survival when the SHTF, without sacrificing firepower or supplies.
 
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Not trying to poke fun of the Sub2000 again because it seems to be targeted, but its just not in the same class as a CZ858. They are similar size and wieght, plus a CZ858 with a unpinned magazine will hold 30 rounds, and the CZ will knock down something at 200 yards away and shoot through a object that someone was hiding behind taking cover.

In my opinion a 9mm rifle for a go to SHTF rifle is a lousy choice. Sure it is small and light, for a rifle, but really its just a big, heavy, awkward, pistol. I would rather keep my 9mm on my hip in a holster for a back up, not in my hands shooting against guys who might be shooting back with a 7.62x39 or .223. Even is you were in a mall and were shooting at short distances, would'nt it be better to be able to shoot through cover to hit your target. You can't shoot through cover to well with a 9mm.
 
Also 223 won't go through trees or cinder blocks with ease but a x39 or 308 will do it in a breeze. Although the down side to 308 is it's wieght and the ability to put large volumes of fire down range with accuracy. Even though the x39 can do this with relitive ease it does wiegh heavier compared to the 223 & the accuracy of this round fails in comparision to compare to a 223 or 308.
As for the glock they do make a 30 round handgun mag for them and there is drum mag conversion kits for this handgun also (Although they are rearer then hens teeth to get!).
Now for the shotgun referance. Well I do hunt with 2 guy's that use it for hunting out of the blind or in a tree stand. So in retro spec if I could only have 1 non-restricted rifle the shotgun would win hands down. Furthermore with this new Kel-Tec bull-pup shotgun well lets just say the rest is history or soon to be ;)
 
saskcop said:
Saskcop is going to get cranky if folks keep talking about unpinned mags, etc.
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Fixed it for you! Just teasing, don't get grumpy. Grab your popcorn, let's watch the kids play. I wan't more pics of their SHTF outfits I'm sure most of these fella's have. I can't post mine, the ninja mask is at the cleaners, and the beer helmet sprung a leak when I was doing commando rolls over the coffee table.
 
TDC; >I would venture to bet that those who run an 858 have far more trigger >time on their rifles than most if not all lever gun users. I would venture that as well. However said:
>For starters the OP asked for non res RIFLES NOT SHOTGUNS, so STOP >mentioning shotguns!

Actually, the first post on this thread simply mentioned "gun" so...SHOTGUN, SHOTGUN , SHOTGUN!!!!

>The lever gun is a joke when compared to other action types, sorry.

No need to apologize. I agree with your logic but I think this question is open to so many considerations that there really is no pefectly "logical" answer. I do think the one absolute is to "have a gun". All else is secondary.

>The lever was at its peak when it was the latest design to hit the hills. >Those days(years) are long long gone. As for relying on a pump gun over a >lever. Yes, its a wise idea. The pump action firearm(usually a shotgun) is a >much simpler mechanical device than the lever gun. Clearing a stoppage in >a pump gun is also much easier than that of a lever gun. Follow up shots >are simplified with a linear movement as opposed to the pendulum motion of >a lever gun. Magazine capacity of the pump is similar or less than that of >some lever guns so no advantage there. The only other advantage is the >ammo availability and versatility(ability to run all rounds found) so long as >we're talking about shotguns. Which we aren't...

SHOTGUNS...sorry;-) Again, your logic is impecable here but if the time factor of a linear vrs pendulum motion is really that critical then I would suggest that the time it takes to do a mag change with the 858 vrs the XCR makes the latter the hands down winner. No only that, the 10rnd mag availability of the XCR is a huge advantage.

I say this based on the premise we are completely legal and have the resources to choose what we think is best. I'm also taking into consideration we get to test our individual firearms.

Most of us here will do that and have lots of ammo but my initial respose was based on my personal understanding of SHTF. I think we have to think a little outside of ourselves and look at it from the perspective of the average guy just trying to survive and protect his family. He may have to borrow a gun from a friend, and barter for ammo. In this part of Canada there are 30-30's everywhere. They work well, don't draw attention, are easier to hide than most guns and ammo can be had for a long time after most other types get hard to find. I also like that it works well with cast bullets. Something to consider if ammo becomes scarce.

It is a gun for a certain type of SHTF sitiation if you will. The army is not after you and you are not being regularly attacked by armed gangs. There are sporadic crimes by people desparate for food and supplies and you have to take advantage of the oportunity to harvest game and provide defense.

>ver guns are a poor choice if one has the choice to make.

I would provide the link but apparently you can get in trouble for doing it. Google "Gabriel Suarez lever action". He lays it out better than I can.
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The funny thing is going to be after the SHTF. A couple guys are going to be squared off across a yard somewhere trying to figure the other guy out, when one is going to say "Hey I recognize that tactic and firearm choice from the 2010-2011 which Non-res rifle is the best thread."
 
I think a shoulder arm with a rifled barrel is commonly referred to as rifle. regardless of the caliber. And I might shoot some full caliber slugs through such a barrel if and when I take care of issues like bore leading. Have a nice day. :D I am surely hoping that the world does not get sucked into a black pit because of my range experiments as well :D
 
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In danger of sounding fuddish, I'm going to state my possible choice.
I have a mitt full of 30 calibre semi-auto options and I don't want to go there at this time.
Reading this thread, time end time again, I'm leaning in future thoughts to a .22 calibre centrefire bolt action repeater.
No larger than 223, clip repeater, great optics a must. (coming from a reloader)

PS: I really like my 30-30s very much for occasional use & hunting. One BIG issue IMHO against them, after six shots in quick succession, barrel heat affects bullet impact @100 yards with my 20 inch carbine.
 
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