long range sort or long barel?

50calshooter said:
Here guys read this article, tried and tested by both The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department's Special Enforcement Bureau (SEB) and by Tac Ops. The article is from SWAT magazine.
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For a Swat team in an urban setting, I agree that shorter is better. For a benchrest target rifle, still no compelling advantage.
 
Shorter barrels are actually often more accurate than their longer counterparts. A rifle barrel is a cantilevered beam and as such they sag. More sag results in more whip and vibration as the bullet travels down the bore. Barrel sag induces longitudinal stress that can cause stringing of shots. Using a shorter, heavier barrel minimizes reduces stress and accuracy-robbing barrel vibration. A shorter barrel is stiffer and vibrates at a less.
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To find the answers, Tac Ops took a 26-inch barreled .300 Win. Mag. and chopped the barrel down in one-inch increments as they previously did with the .308 Winchester. Ten rounds of Federal Match 190-grain BTHP Gold Medal were fired from each increment. No velocity was lost from 26 inches to 22 inches. Velocity loss started to occur only after they went below 22 inches.
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The 300 win testing was done out to 800 yards
 
AKD said:
Palma shooting is @ 1000yard with Iron sights? wow.

I am familiar with ISSF @ 300m using peep sights.

Being the internet if your gona say you shoot 1000 with Iron sights your gona need to back it up with video.
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Hi AKD

I will back Maynard and confirm he shoots Iron sights at 800,900 and 1000 yards (quite well actually) he seems to be at every match i attend. He slings up in a jacket with open sights and i am...on the dark side shooting F class.

We shoot in ORA events and your are more then welcome to come out and give it a go.

As to short barrel vs. long.

Do you need a barrel longer then a 20" to GET to 1000 nope; but there are far more advantages to having a longer barrel to shoot F class or TR. The biggest benefit of a longer barrel is velocity.
The faster you can run your bullet the less wind drift there is per MPH and the greater success of scoring a V with the right wind call or more likely getting away with either missing a slight wind change or making a less then idea call.

For TR shooters longer barrel give them a longer sight radius allowing more precise aiming.

Getting to 1000 with what ever equipment you have is pretty cool. To be competitive you need to understand all aspects of your equipment and how it helps or hurts your scores.

Trevor
 
lol what a Fail this post is.

in the end its all personal.....

Personally if your serious about long range why not use a longer than 20" barrel IMO.


now, one other thing about longer barrels, Say Zombies attack ! and your all out of ammo. hey man, thats 4 more inches of bat you have to swing. think about it ;)
 
50calshooter said:
Wrong! The differences in velocities are irrelevant.



Whatever floats yer boat... So you must be some kind of god to shoot at 1000 with no optics hey?







Here guys read this article, tried and tested by both The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department's Special Enforcement Bureau (SEB) and by Tac Ops. The article is from SWAT magazine.

Read first, then come back....

http://w ww.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/
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...somebody reads more magazines than they shoot rifles. 26", even 27 or 28", will help you at long range, even in the lowly .308.
 
johndeeretimex said:
I am thinking of getting into some long range shooting but I need some more info before making the right choice on buying a good long range gun! I visited a good shop that I trust and he gave me some good questions to ask like, do i need a long or short barrel? bi-pod or bag? I am looking at a rem 700 VTR. I believe the range is no longer than 500 yrds. I believe that we might be advancing as we go.
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Depends on what you want to do.

I shoot in Fclass and this year will campaign the 223 (was in open with a 6.5 before). I also do a ton of LR shooting at rocks, clays, gongs, etc.

For my F TR rig, Savage, Shilen prefit barrel 28" long. 7 twist so I can push the 90gr Bergers as hard as possible. Specialized bipod, rear bag, and stock all optimised to do one thing - let me put that bullet into the V bull.

A very specific rig designed to meet a set of rules and shooting tasks. HERE, longer barrel is better.

My LR plinker is a Savage 223 tactical rifle. It wears a 22" Shilen and 8 twist happily launching 80gr Amax out beyond 1400yds. I have no issue keeping up with 338 LM. It has a Harris, rear bag but going to try and get some time to build a rear monopod.

You can see pics of this rifle and the build up on my website in the Tech section.

There is no one right answer but a variety of ways to reach YOUR specific goal.

Best thing is to get a rifle and go have some fun. As long as you handload properly and have the rifle tuned solidly (bedding, trigger, scope set up), distance is the least of your worries.

Accuracy is relative to the barrel quality, your ability to load and shoot but sub MOA at 1000yds is way too much fun. AND there are precious few factory rifles that can't shoot that well today.

Let us know how you make out.

Jerry
 
Ardent said:
...somebody reads more magazines than they shoot rifles. 26", even 27 or 28", will help you at long range, even in the lowly .308.
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No, not really. So I guess the testing done by reputable agencies in the article is void in your eyes then? OK.

From my own personal experience, I have saw little to no difference between a 26" and 20" barrel in .308. The only thing I noticed was the 20" was a hell of alot easier to pack around.

So if I can shoot the same distance between the two with similar accuracy and little velocity difference, please tell me how the longer barrels will help make a reasonable differance in practicle shooting scenarios...

The OP is talking about buying a factory gun, not building a BR gun for competitions, yet most of the BR competitors here chime in assuming this. I never herd him say he wanted a gun to compete with. did you? Sounds like he wants to just have some fun and reach out and touch some targets.

IMO a short barrel gives you the same abilities a long one does @ 500 yards (which is the distance the OP said he'd be shooting at) The advantage of the short barrel is it doesn't limit the gun to one application, along with weight savings and maneuverability.
 
Higher velocity leads to less bullet time exposed to wind.Less time spent in wind = less adjustment needed.Higher velocity will also mean less elevation needed at extended ranges.
 
50calshooter said:
No, not really. So I guess the testing done by reputable agencies in the article is void in your eyes then? OK.

From my own personal experience, I have saw little to no difference between a 26" and 20" barrel in .308. The only thing I noticed was the 20" was a hell of alot easier to pack around.

So if I can shoot the same distance between the two with similar accuracy and little velocity difference, please tell me how the longer barrels will help make a reasonable differance in practicle shooting scenarios...

The OP is talking about buying a factory gun, not building a BR gun for competitions, yet most of the BR competitors here chime in assuming this. I never herd him say he wanted a gun to compete with. did you? Sounds like he wants to just have some fun and reach out and touch some targets.

In summery a short barrel gives you the same abilities a long one does. The advantage of the short barrel is it doesn't limit the gun to one application, along with weight and maneuverability.
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Short range BR guns are typically short barrel affairs 18 to 20 " sometimes, because of the cartridges used.
1,000 yard BR, then the rifles use about a 30" barrel - even the 300's.
I have never seen a long barrel on the line at short range BR competition unless it was a factory class.
However, I don't think I have seen a barrel under 26" on a line.....
Cat
 
catnthehatt said:
Short range BR guns are typically short barrel affairs 18 to 20 " sometimes, because of the cartridges used.
1,000 yard BR, then the rifles use about a 30" barrel - even the 300's.
I have never seen a long barrel on the line at short range BR competition unless it was a factory class.
However, I don't think I have seen a barrel under 26" on a line.....
Cat
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Again, the OP is not talking about shooting competitions. He's talking about buying a factory gun and shooting out to 500 yards for the knowledge and fun of it.
 
50calshooter said:
Again, the OP is not talking about shooting competitions. He's talking about buying a factory gun and shooting out to 500 yards for the knowledge and fun of it.
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I was actually replying to another post about BR guns and longer barrels.
Myself , even for my hunting and messing around guns I prefer a longer barrel for the balance, because I general usea falling block action for those, and a longer barrel gives better balance.


Cat
 
They used to shoot black powder rifles 1,000 yards in Bisley back in the 1800's no problem with iron sights.1,000 yards with modern rifles and ammo isn't really that incredible.They shoot Match Rifle in England to 1200y with irons too.
 
Longshot said:
They used to shoot black powder rifles 1,000 yards in Bisley back in the 1800's no problem with iron sights.1,000 yards with modern rifles and ammo isn't really that incredible.They shoot Match Rifle in England to 1200y with irons too.
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They still shoot it at Cannaught!
But whether it's BP or smokeless, it's all fun.
Check this out 1,000 yards, one zeroing shot, a sight adjustment, then a hit on the 2MOA rock with a No.1 Lithgow and OPEN sights!!:D
The range was lasered, BTW, and although I had a target there, i did not have it up at the time.
clintgoinglong.jpg

Cat
 
I note that the quoted article made reference to the use of 190gr bullets.
It is difficult to get bullets this heavy going fast enough to out of a .308 to perform well at long range. A 20" barrel would only compound this problem. Don't know why 190s would have been referenced for .308 long range. Odd choice.
With a long barrel and optimum velocity, it is very difficult to beat the performance of a 155gr match bullet at long range, fired from a .308.
If a .300WM is used, the the 190 can start to shine.
For known distance target shooting, trajectory isn't much of an issue. Wind drift is.
For field shooting, a flatter trajectory can be an advantage.

The OP is wondering about shooting to 500. At medium distances like this, barrel length is not much of an issue.
 
50calshooter said:
Here guys read this article, tried and tested by both The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department's Special Enforcement Bureau (SEB) and by Tac Ops. The article is from SWAT magazine.

Read first, then come back....

http://w ww.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/
Click to expand...

Ahhh! what do these guys know about shooting. There are tons of guys here shooting sub-1 inch groups at 2000 yards with SKS and chinese ball ammo. Heck, I talked to a guy that saw a 700-yard one shot kill on a moose with a .458 Win. Mag. You need a barrel at least 42" long. Don't use sights - bore-sight to your target. Unless your eyesight is really bad, the bull should be no more than 4" at a 1000 yds. for open sights. If you're North of 45 deg. latitude, wind is not an issue, but remember to take the Earth's rotation into account. I know so many guys that have made 500 and 600 yd. kills with off-the-rack .308's and 30-06's, that get fired once every 3 years, using 180 gr. round nose ammo, that what you're talking about barely seems like a challenge. You want to hear about some REAL shooting go into any bar during moose season. You'll hear shooting feats that would make a bald man curl, and tales of moose the size of dinosaurs. Open sights on PAPER at 900 yds. PSHAW, I say. Do something that's really challenging!
 
Tommy Lambrecht, SEB armorer and Special Weapons Team long rifle expert, recently chronographed the Federal Match 168-gr. BTHP rounds. Lambrecht said that the muzzle velocity was averaging around 2,660 to 2,670 feet per second (fps) from the 20-inch-barreled Tango 51 that Tac Ops delivered to him.

The accuracy of the Tango 51 isn't hampered by the shorter barrel. While at the range with the Tango 51 we were consistently getting sub-1/4 MOA accuracy at longer ranges? Well, the shorter barrel doesn't hamper longer range accuracy either.
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The distances used here were out to 600 yards.

...Nevermind what do these guys know anyway eh? :rolleyes:

tiriaq said:
I note that the quoted article made reference to the use of 190gr bullets.
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BTW they used 168 for .308 and 190 for 300 win
 
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