Help needed interrupting incremental load test

[RickP]

At the risk of embarrassing myself by showing my marksmanship (or lack thereof) I would appreciated some input.
The image below shows the results of two incremental load tests using the same load on the the same day - actually back to back.
Test parameters: 222 rem @ 200yds, Sierra 50g SP (sorted to within .1g), Benchmark powder, loads starting at 22.2g (1) and increasing by .2 g to a maximum of 24g (10). Shot at the range, seated at a bench, using a rest bag under the forend, otherwise shouldering the rifle as I would in the field - the best I can do with the resources I currently have.
This test was the third recipe I've tried and shows the most promising results.
I see several things. First is that my scope is not sighted in properly and is shooting right. Second is my marksmanship is suspect. Third, it appears that something is happening with shots 5 and 8. Other than that I'm at a lose to make hide nor hare from all this.
So, what's it all mean. Have at it folks, I have broad shoulders, no need to be gentle. I'm looking for some input in an effort to improve - either me or my load. What is my next step?
As always, thanks in advance.

 

[H4831]

Two possible causes. You or the rifle.
I am assuming you are a pretty good shot with the 222, so the likely culprit is the rifle.
It has every indication of being badly in need of a bedding job.
No use in further experimenting with ammunition, until the rifle is checked.

 

[RickP]

Two possible causes. You or the rifle.
I am assuming you are a pretty good shot with the 222, so the likely culprit is the rifle.
It has every indication of being badly in need of a bedding job.
No use in further experimenting with ammunition, until the rifle is checked.

I've been shooting for three months and loading for three weeks. No, I'm not a good shot with a 222 or anything else for that matter.
I will however, do some research into a bedding job. Is this something I should ask of my girlfriend or my gunsmith?
Seriously, what is a bedding job, thanks

 

[dead meat]

Talk to your girlfriend first. That will at least take some of the pressure off. Check your barrel to see if it is floating or not, their are some good videos of how to bed a rifle. How does it group with factory ammo? I would also start at 100 yards.

 

[H4831]

I've been shooting for three months and loading for three weeks. No, I'm not a good shot with a 222 or anything else for that matter.
I will however, do some research into a bedding job. Is this something I should ask of my girlfriend or my gunsmith?
Seriously, what is a bedding job, thanks

Yes, it was the rifle that I was referring to that should have a bedding job!
On a rifle it refers to the fit of the metal to the wood, and is of vital importance. Whether the rifle is new or old, doesn't mean a thing.
There are basically two operations, or parts to it.
The action should fit perfectly flat and even, so no bend or twist is exerted when the screws are tightened.
The recoil lug on the action should make a perfect contact with the front of the slot on the stock designed for it.
There are basically two ways to do the barrel, one being free floating. This means that no part of the barrel, from the chamber forward, touches the stock. While this is the easiest to do, the vast majority of rifles I have had anything to do with, shot better when there was a support for the barrel at the front of the forestock.
When the action screws are tightened full up, there should be some pressure on the barrel. An average amount for sporting rifles is about 5 or 6 pounds. That is, use a spring scale on the barrel next to the stock. Put pressure on to pull the barrel from the stock, and when you see the barrel move a bit, the scale should read close to the 5 to 6 range.
To find out whether or not the problem is you, you should have a good, scope sighted 22 rim fire. Shoot that just as you are shooting the 222 and see how you do. With no wind, the rim fire should make about a 2 inch group, with most 22 long rifle ammo at 100 yards.
Forgot to mention that I am assuming your rifle has a wood stock.
If it is plastic, all bets are off.

 

[redryder]

So not sure what you are trying to say, but what is wrong with loads 4,6 and 7? Why not try some of those loads again, five at a time and see whats up?

 

[junkdude]

Take your load data and plot it on a graph.

Two ways of looking at it.

1) put your powder weight for an individual load on the x-axis and the distance the point of impact is from the aim point on the y-axis. Only problem is this will include wind drift in the distance.

2) powder weight on the x-axis and elevation deviation (absolute value I believe) between point of aim and point of impact on y-axis.

You should see one or two plateaus where there is less change in deviation over a range of powder loads.

I very quickly did this and it looks like you have a possible plateau at 22.7 or 23.3gr.

I've done exactly the same thing with 30-06 (bedded but floating), 308 (bedded and floating), 45-70 , 223 (bedded & floating) and found the sweet spot load, except I shot 20 load increments. I've verifed my loads on the 223, 308 and 45-70 using a pressure trace system which predicted the same sweet spots, so the incremental system does work; you may just need to do smaller increments so the plateaus are more prounced.

For my 223, the sweet spot was only 0.3gr wide. I believe it will work on almost any gun, regardless of bedding, etc (as long as something is not loose). The basic idea is to load at a velocity that is optimum fo a given gun harmonics.

 

[junkdude]

oops... forgot to mention that it could be your gun just does not like the bullets. I've had bullets (varmint grenades) that i could not stabalize out of a 22 hornet no matter what I did with the load, i just could'nt get them to spin fast enough; but they shot fantastic out of the 223 since the tighter twist.

 

[Pudelpointer]

You need to get a sandbag under the butt stock, preferably under the pistol grip. Without a solid rest you will never have any idea what is really happening with your rifle. Shoot it at 25 yards if you have to. Use one load, do not vary the load until you know the rifle is shooting consistently - even if that is consistently poor.

If your shots are "walking" from l-r or r-l or up/down as you shoot (again, the SAME load) then you have a bedding / contact issue. If that is not happening with a single load, THEN you can move on to see of you can find a more accurate one.

Need to crawl before you can walk before you can run a marathon. Baby steps my friend.

 

[RickP]

.......Check your barrel to see if it is floating or not, their are some good videos of how to bed a rifle. How does it group with factory ammo? I would also start at 100 yards.

Wow, some interesting videos show up when searching "how to bed a rifle". I've bookmarked that search.
I`ve tried factory Federal, Winchester, and Remington. I`d be lucky to have a dinner plate size group at 100yds.
This is what has pushed me to try reloading. The rifle has never shot so good as with the load mentioned and shown above.

.......Forgot to mention that I am assuming your rifle has a wood stock.....

I should have mentioned, and I apologize for not doing so, I didn`t think it was relevant, but......
I`m shooting a break action single shot - Savage 24V 222rem over 20g combination gun.
I would expect this information is very relevant. Again, I apologize.
Although I have no access to a 22lg, I will ask around at the club and see if someone will loan me a rifle to test my marksmanship.

......Why not try some of those loads again, five at a time and see whats up?

I was wondering whether that was the approach to take.

Thanks all.

 

[Ganderite]

Wow!! Talk about missing info!

For a break action you are doing just fine. Shoot 5 shot groups withthe same ammo, slooooly. A break action double rifle reacts to the heat.

Load the powder charge of #6 or #7 and be done with it.

You should try loading, say #6, withhe bullet seaterd in 20 tough and out 20 thou and compare it to the original. One might work better than the other.

 

[Pudelpointer]

Where is that "Jesus Face Palm" emoticon?

Yes, the fact it is a Savage 24 makes a pretty big difference. Technically, I guess you could bed it, but you would have to try it to see if it helped. Ganderite has it right: you need to fire each shot as, basically, a first shot. In other words, a cold, fouled barrel. Each successive shot will heat the barrel a little bit more, causing stress and strain thereby changing your barrel harmonics.

I would try this:
1. Pick a decent load out of your manual and load 7 rounds.
2. At home, clean your rifle barrel well, scrub it good and swab it dry.
3. Head to the range and fire two rounds as soon as you get there (safety permitting of course).
4. Now go set up your target, arrange your sandbags, have a bite to eat and a cup of tea. In other words, take a 15-20 minute break until your rifle cools down to ambient temp.
5. Now fire round #1 at the target using the best form you have.
6. REPEAT STEP 4!
7. Continue over the next 2 hours or so to shoot the rest of your test loads.

That is the only way to know if the load you are working up is better then any other.

That rifle is not a "plinker", it is for hunting. The "first shot" is the one that counts.

 

[RickP]

Wow!! Talk about missing info!.....

Where is that "Jesus Face Palm" emoticon?

Yes, the fact it is a Savage 24 makes a pretty big difference.

Oh boy, fellin' pretty stupid about now. I just didn't know, I don't know. Sorry.
I tried to include as much info in my OP...........well, enough said.

Just to put it into perspective, I fired the 10 round test inside of 1/2 hr with no rhyme nor reason between shots - it might have been one minute, it might have been 10 minutes.

I will follow advice (including working on those graphs).

Thanks for your patience. (As I exit room with a red face)

 

[H4831]

I've re read the posts and I still don't see where he said it was a Savage 24.
I was presuming it was a bolt action.

 

[redryder]

Post #10

I've re read the posts and I still don't see where he said it was a Savage 24.
I was presuming it was a bolt action.

 

[dead meat]

Yup we all assumed it was a bolt gun. So back to my first recomendation, talk to the girlfriend about the bedding.

 

[RickP]

Yup we all assumed it was a bolt gun. So back to my first recomendation, talk to the girlfriend about the bedding.

I hope everyone else still has a sense of humour as well.

 

[dead meat]

It has been said i have a warped sense of humor. Don`t take every comment on here to heart, ask if you do not know something. How else will you learn. Keep shooting and upgrade your equipment as funds permit. Lots of good info on the net, also some crap. Have fun.

 

[ben hunchak]

You are doing it much diff. then I do, I always try to isolate which bullet the gun likes best, I load a bunch of dif. bullets with the same load otherwise. The bullet that looks most promising then gets tried with different powders, and seating depths. Just picking one bullet arbitrarily may doom your accuracy quest, as i've seen lots of occasions where one particular bullet won't shoot worth a sh%t no matter what you try!

 

[Ron AKA]

I don't think you did too bad, and don't be discouraged. An incremental load test or ladder test really works best with a very accurate benchrest gun that is shooting .1 to .2" groups at 100 yards. It is quite a bit more difficult with a hunting type gun that is throwing groups much larger.

I would not give up, and here is what I would do different. Use a rest at the rear as well as the front to see if you steady things up some. Shoot 10 different targets for each of the 10 different loads, but shoot three at each target. Ignore the horizontal movement. Incremental load can only help you with vertical. On each target measure the height of each POI above a datum line lower than any bullet. Calculate the average height of POI for each target (load). Then plot that on a graph with the powder weight on the X axis and the vertical averages on the Y axis. What you are looking for are flat spots where you increase powder weight, but vertical point of impact does not go up. The center of those flat spots are the nodes or sweet spots you are looking for. I would stay with the 200 yards or even 300 if you think you can see the target clearly. The distance exaggerates the vertical effect you are looking for. Here is an example of an incremental load test I did at 300 meters on three different bullets.

If you have a chronograph you can also use velocity as your X axis. See this graph for the same test, but using velocity:

Rightly or wrongly I concluded 3420 for velocity was a sweet spot.

You could try measuring the vertical on your existing data, averaging it, and plotting it on a graph. However it is pretty spread out, and you may want to see more data points before deciding. The good news is that a .222 has a very long barrel life and there is nothing wrong with shooting 5 bullets at each target to get a better average for each load.

Hope that helps some.