IPSC Rules 10.5.3 and 10.5.14 in conflict?

[Canadian_Eh]

I am confused about these two rules. I think I'm missing something, because if I'm not they are in conflict. I trust I'll be shamed by some obvious point.

What rules apply if you drop your handgun, unloaded, during a course of fire? This is clearly a dangerous habit to break so I imagine there is some sense in it leading to some type of infraction which teaches a lesson, but how are these rules (10.5.3 & 10.5.14) applied here?

Relevant IPSC rule sections here (key bits only):

10.5 - Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

10.5.3 - If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor drops his firearm or causes it to fall, loaded or not.

10.5.14 - Retrieving a dropped firearm. Dropped firearms must always be retrieved by a Range Officer who will, after checking and/or clearing the firearm, place it directly into the competitor's gun case, gun bag or holster. Dropping an unloaded firearm or causing it to fall outside of a course of fire is not an infraction, however, a competitor who retrieves a dropped firearm will receive a match disqualification.​

So you drop it and get a Match DQ based on 10.5.3, but then you let the RO pick it up (10.5.14) and now you are good, even though 10.5.3 says the drop should have DQ'd you immediately. I'm missing something about these aren't I? Is the first rule applied while the timer is running, and the second rule somehow only applies before and after? Seems ambiguous.

 

[(((Echo)))]

Not that ambiguous. You have it, but you're not seeing it. The term "course of fire" is what separates them.

10.5.3 applies during the CoF (start signal to your hand clearing the holstered handgun). Drop your pistol (or cause it to fall) at anytime during the stage (CoF) and you're done.

10.5.14 applies to everything outside of the CoF, (walking around, checking out the stage, sitting on your butt....) If your pistol ends up on the ground and you pick it up, goodbye. If you alert the RO and they pick it up, all's good.

Clear?

(E)

 

[Fusilier]

Unless I'm mistaken, the course of fire begins with the RO's "load and make ready" command and not with the start signal. If you drop your gun after "load and make ready", you're going home early that day.

 

[flinter]

Unless I'm mistaken, the course of fire begins with the RO's "load and make ready" command and not with the start signal. If you drop your gun after "load and make ready", you're going home early that day.

But you can still be a sport and stay and help make the Match run smooth

It takes a lot of work to run a match
Here in Alberta everyone works at a match

 

[CeeZer]

Echo is correct. One can drop the gun moving from a stage to stage.. at Safe Area, etc...
The worst I ever experienced was when a guy dropped the (Open) gun right at first stage, first shooter, before he even fired 1st shot as he was drawing it; on the ground facing uprange... he was an experienced shooter, a few years in, happens to the best of us. Dairy Queen (DQ) trip... as they say...
I had one and only so far as well, sh1t happens.

 

[PH Racing]

10.5.14 also says that any firearm at any time, during a course of fire or not, must be retrieved by an RO. At no time can a competitor retrieve his/her own firearm. Any time your gun hits the ground call an RO, if it is during a course of fire the RO will already know, the RO will then clear the gun and return it to the owners holster.

 

[Fusilier]

But you can still be a sport and stay and help make the Match run smooth

Very good point. I've done exactly that myself. Luckily I've only had to do it once.

We've all also seen the gamer get 'caught out' and stomp off home in disgust. Some people just make things run smoother by leaving.

It takes all kinds.

 

[Canadian_Eh]

Great feedback fellas. Much clearer to me now. CGN for the win!

Recap: Once the day starts, dropping your handgun at any time requires a Range Officer for retrieval. If you happen to be participating in a Course of Fire that has started this RO retrieval also comes with a DQ. Helping with the match while your disappointment subsides is a good way to still enjoy some of the day.

 

[race1911]

you've got it

 

[PH Racing]

And don't make a habit of dropping your gun, a couple of DQ's and you'll be going back for a remedial course....

 

[euxx]

If you making this a habit, perhaps you need a new holster...

 

[PH Racing]

Most acceptable holsters for IPSC are not the problem, usually they are set up poorly by the user and that causes the problem.

 

[euxx]

See, if holster gives too much space to setup or error prone, it still may need to be replaced with something more user proof.

 

[(((Echo)))]

Unless I'm mistaken, the course of fire begins with the RO's "load and make ready" command and not with the start signal. If you drop your gun after "load and make ready", you're going home early that day.

You are not mistaken. My whoops.

I've never ditched a gun during a CoF, but I've had mine come out during walk-through. Dropped down while checking out a low port, gun decided it wanted a better look too . Mental note, check holster retention while gearing up.

(E)

 

[PeterPan]

Nr 1 never drop the gun while at the match or range, depends on occasion it may cause early trip home
Nr 2 buy a holster with lock or adjustable retention knob to avoid this in the future

 

[Canadian_Eh]

I'm feeling better now about my choice of a Blackhawk Serpa holster. It's a fraction slower, requires good trigger finger discipline, but has a reassuring CLICK when the handgun is locked in. For now it is one less thing to let go of my handgun.

 

[capncrunch]

Most acceptable holsters for IPSC are not the problem, usually they are set up poorly by the user and that causes the problem.

I can remember a couple of years back helping mrclean with a BB course. A new shooter drew his pistol, brought his support hand up and started to align his sights on the target... then realized his holster was hanging off his gun.

 

[PH Racing]

See, if holster gives too much space to setup or error prone, it still may need to be replaced with something more user proof.

That's the fine line. For competitiveness we need the adjustments to fine tune the holster, but to someone new or inexperienced the range of adjustment can lead to issues. I have been using race holsters for 20 years now, from Ernie Hill to various Safariland, Bianchi, CR Speed and others and I have yet to drop my gun.