Round Ball Ballistics?/Accuracy

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furwall

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What can one expect to get for velocities with the .50 and .54cal Lyman Great Plains Rifle in a flint Lock with a round ball? Again with the Great Plains, what can one expect to get for groups at 100 yrds with the round ball and is there after market barrels available that would tighten the groups. I looked at Green Mountain and they don't seem to have anything for the lymans flint lock.

Furwall
 
My .50 Plains rifle shot really good with the 395 gr. plains conical bullet and some groups were around 2" at 100yds., I could never get the rb loads to shoot that well. Even on the 200 and 300 yd. gongs the conical was respectable while it seemed that the rb fell halfway!!
 
I used to have a Lyman Deerstalker in .50 cal and got velositys of about 1750 fps with a .495 round ball and 80g of Pyrodex RS. Accuracy was good enough to cleanly take 3 whitetails at the 100 yard mark, and all 3 were one shot kills. It would nicely put the first 3 shots from a clean barrel into 2 1/2" at 100 yards. I do not see well enough to shoot that far anymore. A old hunting partner of mine used a .54 GPR that could hit a 5" target at 150 yards using round balls
 
Thank you for the input this is the kind of information that I'm needing. I have borrowed .54cal and at 70yrds my five shot groups are 5", I had started to wonder if that was as good as it gets with a ball. Ben, the 395gr conical that you are shooting, is that out of the 1:60 twist barrel or are you shooting with the tighter hunting barrel? Has anyone use a round ball on elk. Will a round ball penetrate the shoulder and make it to the vitals at 100yrd, if not what about 50yrds? I'm using this information to decide weather to buy the .50 or .54cal.

Furwall
 
I think that the twist on that barrel is 1-66" and yes the conical outshot the round ball by a mile! I'd like to ring out a .54 as I have a similar Plains conical for that. The dumb buttstock on the Lyman ended my association with that rifle, and would be even worse with a .54 IMHO.
 
furwall said:
Has anyone use a round ball on elk. Will a round ball penetrate the shoulder and make it to the vitals at 100yrd, if not what about 50yrds? I'm using this information to decide weather to buy the .50 or .54cal.
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If elk is your goal I would go for the 54 without question and probably limit yourself to about 75 yards. Round balls loose energy pretty quickly. Also for shoulder shots you might want to use a partially hardened lead to ensure penetration. Pure lead seems to flatten pretty easily. Having said that the only deer that I have shot was with a 50% wheel weight ball and after travelling lengthwise along the spine from the front back and cutting 6 ribs, the ball was flattened on the front and slightly expanded but certainly not flattened right out.

cheers mooncoon
 
furwall said:
Thank you for the input this is the kind of information that I'm needing. I have borrowed .54cal and at 70yrds my five shot groups are 5", I had started to wonder if that was as good as it gets with a ball. Ben, the 395gr conical that you are shooting, is that out of the 1:60 twist barrel or are you shooting with the tighter hunting barrel? Has anyone use a round ball on elk. Will a round ball penetrate the shoulder and make it to the vitals at 100yrd, if not what about 50yrds? I'm using this information to decide weather to buy the .50 or .54cal.

Furwall
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Don't expect the 1 in 60" twist to shoot a 395g conical, it may in the odd rifle but not likely. The 1 in 60" is a round ball twist, and that is what I would use. I visit a traditional muzzleloading board and they mostly use round balls in those rifles. It takes a lot of load work, but I am sure you will find a ball/powder/lube load that will work.
 
I don't have a lot of experience with 50 and 54 in RB, but I shoot several 45's extensively. In my 45's, round ball past 50 yds is kind of pushing it, but I get 3-4" groups with conicals at 100 yds., open sights, traditional Kentucky rifle sights. Within 20 yds, I can consistently take the heads off grouse with my Kentucky. The biggest deterrent to accuracy I found with M/L is excessive powder charges. Start low and work your way up. With my 45's, 22 gr. of fffG and round ball is most accurate, and 70 gr. of ffG with 240 gr. Maxi's is the best. If I try to go over 85 gr, accuracy really starts to suck.
 
The old articles on BP hunting rifles usually recommend using the larger bores if you are going to hunt with round ball. 54 or larger work better than 50 or 45 in terms of striking power. Accuracy wise the round ball twist was 1/60 or 66, intermediate for ball or bullet was around 1/48 and up to 1/30 or 1/24 for solid slugs/bullets.

When my eyes were better I could keep most shots at 100 yards in a playing card with my TC New Englander 50 cal with round ball and target velocity loads.

Sometimes the Lee R.E.A.L muzzleloader bullets will work quite well in round ball twist barrels because they are quite short for their weight.

Good luck with it.
 
if that was as good as it gets with a ball
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I am really new to this so take anything I say with a grain of saltpeter. As far as I can tell from what I have read and heard there is simply no reason to expect anything other then laser accuracy from a RB. This of course is contingent on the operator setting everything up properly and shooting well. In your first 5 shots you illustrated that you could cleanly kill a deer or bear at 75 yards. That is pretty much the best sales pitch Lyman ever got!
In a RB gun get the 54 for hunting in Alberta. Have you considered the deerstalker in 1:48 twist. No one seems willing to say the compromise twist is'nt good at what it does.
By going with the deerstalker you could get the 100% stainless model. I know it aint exactly 'period' but either is carbon steel and IMHO using the best material available is mountain man smart. I have never held a GPR but the deerstalker is very nicely balanced and handy. With the butt on your toe everything seems to be right where you want it for loading. Plus it is nice when your rifle fits width wise across the dash.
 
I used a .50 Deerstalker for years and liked it a lot, but when I decided to get a .54 they didn't have any in stock so I went with the Lyman Trade rifle. The Deerstalker in stainless has a 1 in 32" twist that for shooting bore sized bullets.
 
According to the Black Powder Loading Manual by Sam Fadala the Lyman .50 cal. Great Plains Rifle with a .490 177 gr. patched round ball gets 1135 fps with 60 grs FF, 1692 fps with 60 grs FFF and 1930 fps with 90 grs FFF.

He didn't test the GPR in .54 cal. but an Ethan Allen Plains Rifle, also with a 32" barrel, was said to get 1228 fps with 50 grs of FF, 1448 fps with 70 grs FF, 1571 fps with 90 grs FF and 1699 fps with 110 grs FF. All with a .530 225 gr. patched round ball.
 
Can't speak from first hand experience about the Lyman GPR but I have shot about 10 deer with RB's from a 45 and 54 longrifles and a 54 cal plains rifle with 35" barrel. I use 70 gr FFFg in the 45 and 90 or 95 gr FFg or FFFg in the 54's. Closest deer was about 65 paces and furthest was just over 100 paces and in all cases the RB passed completely through the shoulder. I met a 54 RB shooter who claimed to have put a RB completely through the chest of a broadside buffalo bull at almost 100 yd. with a similar powder charge. I would recommend a 54 for anything bigger than a deer. As for RB accuracy, you may have to experiment with various powder charges, ball diameters, patch thicknesses and patch lubes but the rifle, from a sandbag rest should be able to overlap the holes at 50 yd and group 2" at 100 yd under good light and wind conditions if you do your part.
Good luck.
 
Lymen GPR comes with two type twist, 1:60 for PRB, and 1:32 for conical, and .50 and .54 cal, Slow twist (1:60+) is the master of round ball, and fast twist works well with conicals, there are rifles with 1:48 twist that can do both OK, kind of jack of all trades and master of none. For hunting large game, go with larger cal.,
 
Gentlemen,

Thank you for taking the time to pass on your experiences and read knowledge. I've read it a few times and pondered on all of it. I've come to the conclusion - with your help - that the .54 cal would be the best for my hunting goals if I'm to stay with a round ball and a .50 cal would work as well if one choice to shoot a conical. I'm favouring a .54 cal but I have a line on a couple of .50 cals one in a TC and one in a Lyman GPR. I prefer the Lyman GPR for looks and the way it fits me, but the TC is built more precisely with a much better flint lock. Currently I'm testing some cast bullet.

Thank you, Furwall
 
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