Heavy Barrel vs Normal Barrel?

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Jeff000

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What is the advantage of the heavy barrel? Does it just hold more heat before warping?
For a 204 at what rate of factory ammo fire would a heavy barrel be needed for heat reasons?

For some reason I am drawn to thinking I need a heavy barrel, but I have no idea why. I would be shooting coyotes, sometimes gophers, and sometimes paper.
But I have a 17hmr for the majority of gophers.

EDIT, I meant to put this in the hunting and sporting, but I suppose this forum might be more appropriate.
 
Not necessarily...

Heavier barrel resist heat better and are less prone to reaching a temperature where heat becomes seriously detrimental - sooner.

Heavy barrels do indeed posses better harmonic stability, but if the steel is stressed or of poor homogenicity, it is still prone to dimensional instability as it changes temperature. The amount (or lack) of latent stress depends on the quality of the manufacturing process.

Heavy barrels are a far better choice for varmint and target shooters that will shoot more than one or two rounds at their "quarry". Hunting contours are perfectly fine for accuracy, but they heat up quickly and are a poor choice for those wishing to fire a few boxes of ammo in one sitting.

FWIW, I am an avid gopher hunter and in spite of having access to all manner of fancy barrels, I use a bone-stock Remington 700 SPS in 204 Ruger for most of my varmint safaris, and it is both accurate and "stable". I am on my third factory 204. I love them.
 
As Paatz says, the barrels vibrate with a lower amplitude of vibration. They also can be more predictable in their vibration pattern and easier to find the sweet spots for velocity. For target shooting weight is your friend. More weight makes it harder for the shooter to mess up. Also reduces recoil.
 
It appears to me that the heavy barrels in the game of shooting say 10 shots in less than 5 minutes, as it appears we do in the F class game, that a heavy barrel will still keep shots on target at distance. I hear tell from some of the Fclassers that the barrel can become sizziling hot after a string of 20 in the summer and they remain competitive. Now if we put aluminum fins on the barrel, then it would be even better at cooling like other heat sinks do.

This cannot be said for a thin tube where you see shots creep up or around when the barrel gets really hot. It is even more noticeable when the summer temperatures come around and it does not cool as fast as it does now in the winter.

So in the real world of shooting in a gopher patch or at a few yotes on your favorite field, i think a realistic person would say, just get out and shoot em. Unless you have 20really stupid gophers holding firm to pick off in quick succession in a 20 degree summer day at 300m I would suggest you go with the heavy barrel. Othewise, I believe any tube you choose will perform admirably in real world hunting situations. Good on ya for keeping it real Obtunded.
 
elkhuntr said:
This cannot be said for a thin tube where you see shots creep up or around when the barrel gets really hot. It is even more noticeable when the summer temperatures come around and it does not cool as fast as it does now in the winter.
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This isn't exactly the case with factory heavy barrels. Once those factory heavy barrels heat up they, in my own cases, start stringing and throwing shots.
As was stated due to the production of quality match grade barrels (stress relieving, etc.) they can heat up and still shoot consistently.
 
What are thoughts on how a hammer forged barrel which is loaded with residual stress behaves as it heats compared to a button rifled or cut rifled conventional barrel?

I know from some industrial experience that concentric uniformity of material properties is critical in maintaining straightness of a shaft.
 
Regardless of process the barrel was made, each maker must have their process to stress relieve the barrel. And they may do it several times during the process. From my read, the difference in the precision barrel world is that they take the process many step further and hand lap the product. So I wonder, if you took that hammer forged product from the factory and hand lapped it, could it be possible to have a precision product. In the back of my head, yes it could, as long as your process ensured a perfectly straight hole to start, regardless of how you get those lands in place, and stress relieved through a thorough and precise process (= costly process). My 35 year old BRNO hammer forged barrel shoots sub MOA to this day:)
 
Ron AKA said:
What are thoughts on how a hammer forged barrel which is loaded with residual stress behaves as it heats compared to a button rifled or cut rifled conventional barrel?

I know from some industrial experience that concentric uniformity of material properties is critical in maintaining straightness of a shaft.
Click to expand...

Tikka and SAKO use Hammer Forged barrels these are some of the most accurate rifles you can buy. And they seem to stay stable even when a few too many 338 LM rds get fired. The shooter got excited at plucking rocks at a mile and couldn't stop filling the mag.... But this is a good thing.

A well made 'match' quality barrel ie stressed relieved and properly machined can stay stable even when very hot. So a quality hunting contour COULD stay more stable then a poorly made factory barrel of heavier contour.

In general, we use heavier barrels increase the number of shots before barrel heat becomes a problem

makes the rifle more stable ie heavy guns tend not to move

heavy guns recoil less so we can enjoy the sustained fire more

heavy barrel can be easier to tune but give me a quality match barrel in a hunting contour and it will get dialed in pronto.

Pick the barrel that suits its application. you would no more want a 30" 20lbs rifle to chase coyotes then want a 6lbs 20" rig to shoot F class.

Make the tool fit the task...

Jerry
 
Amen to Sako and and Tikka. Remington (Non-Senderos) are hammer forged too, but they are more hit and miss (no pun intended)

I had 2 Tikka Tacticals, and I could get them quite toasty and they were still holding bull.
 
Mystic Precision said:
heavy barrel can be easier to tune but give me a quality match barrel in a hunting contour and it will get dialed in pronto.
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What do you mean by this?

Thanks for the great post. I will be picking up a hunting contour :) (I am assuming hunting contour is a standard barrel). Better tool for my needs I think.

One last quick thing, stainless or not? does it make a difference?
 
My Tikka t3 Lite shoots very very nice. under an inch with sst's easy if I'm not hungover or had a monster or two... but in the summer the barrel can get really hot really fast.

I love shooting it when it's -10 out :)
 
Maybe a little off target, but didn’t want to start a new thread and thought this fit in with the discussion. I have a 700 sps in 308 with the 26 inch heavy barrel. It is the first bolt gun I have owned in a very long time and my shooting experience is principally in black guns and IPSC.

I love plinking with it and a normal trip to the range or clearing involves shooting 100 -120 rounds in 70-90 min. I find the barrel heats up enough to be too hot to touch with corresponding mirage issues a number of times throughout my range session. The groups tend to open up a bit from 1.5 to 2- 2.5 inches as it heats up. Is this typical behaviour for this barrel? Is there anything I can do reduce these effect other than the obvious of shooting less? Could it be related to my powder choice of H4350? I know varget (or others) is a better overall choice, but I have lots of 4350 and want to finish it off unless it’s the problem. Thanks in advance for you thoughts.
 
Remember, once lit the pressures and heat emulate supernova standard. Somewhere I remember 5000 degrees or more. A slower burning powder may help, but you are still talking a lot of heat for a short period of time. Any stress in the factory barrel will come out. Now, a precision barrel of same contour will perform better but it depends on what you are trying to achieve. I assume you are not trying to pop the eyes out of 20 gophers at 300m in 5 minutes. I believe only waiting for the barrel to cool down will help in this department. my 25c
 
Obtunded said:
Amen to Sako and and Tikka. Remington (Non-Senderos) are hammer forged too, but they are more hit and miss (no pun intended)

I had 2 Tikka Tacticals, and I could get them quite toasty and they were still holding bull.
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Your comment has made me curious, as I have a Sako, a Tikka and a Sendero...

Can you elaborate on the Sendero barrels?

What process is used to make them?

Are they of higher quality than standard Remington barrels?
 
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IRC said:
Maybe a little off target, but didn’t want to start a new thread and thought this fit in with the discussion. I have a 700 sps in 308 with the 26 inch heavy barrel. It is the first bolt gun I have owned in a very long time and my shooting experience is principally in black guns and IPSC.

I love plinking with it and a normal trip to the range or clearing involves shooting 100 -120 rounds in 70-90 min. I find the barrel heats up enough to be too hot to touch with corresponding mirage issues a number of times throughout my range session. The groups tend to open up a bit from 1.5 to 2- 2.5 inches as it heats up. Is this typical behaviour for this barrel? Is there anything I can do reduce these effect other than the obvious of shooting less? Could it be related to my powder choice of H4350? I know varget (or others) is a better overall choice, but I have lots of 4350 and want to finish it off unless it’s the problem. Thanks in advance for you thoughts.
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Very typical

Track how many shots before it starts to open up. Keep the barrel under this temp and it will work just fine.

I put on a temp sticker - same as on an aquarium but a higher temp range - to keep an eye on temp vs shift.

The effect was always repeatable so I just let it cool, shot till it reached that temp, let it cool again.

Snow or wet towels will speed up the process.

There really isn't any easy way to stress relieve your barrel. Some companies offer cryogenic but I have not seen any definitive results.

have two rifles and alternate...

Jerry
 
Just some musings about the effect of temperature on a barrel. When a barrel is subject to some repeated closely spaced shots, the inside of the barrel heats up while the outside remains colder. In time the temperature becomes uniform and warm. The whole barrel diameter and the bore expands with the temperature. But, in the short term before equalization the bore can actually contract. The cold outer part does not let the inner part expand out, so it has to go in, and the diameter is reduced.

This differential expansion acts in the longitudinal direction too. The inside of the barrel wants to get longer, but the cooler outside does not let it. This is fine and has no major effect as long as the outside of the barrel has very uniform strength. If one side is weaker than the other then the barrel will warp, changing point of impact.

My thoughts are that hammer forged barrels are most likely to have variations in tensile strength at the outer diameter, and as a result most likely to warp with transient heating. This is because they are formed from the outside with extreme stress. The barrel actually grows 1/3 or so in length during the hammering. Further there is a move to cold forging instead of hot, which causes even more stress. Yes, they get "stress relieved", but do they really, and how uniform is it. Obviously they can't take all stress out or the steel would be no weak.

On the other hand button rifled barrels have little stress until the button rifling is done. Even then the stress is very localized and at the inside of the bore. The outside of the barrel is unaffected.

Just my musings but, my guess is that hammer forged barrels are likely the most sensitive to heating and having the point of impact "walking". Button rifled should be much more resistant, and cut rifling of course the most resistant.

Probably not an issue for hunting rifles, but in target shooting or any other application where you are looking for the best accuracy, then it may be. Could make the difference between a 1 moa barrel and a 1/4 moa one.
 
I have a heavy barreled 300 wm as my first specific target/hunting rifle. It might almost be better to describe as "very heavy barreled" it is CM 1.25"end-to-end fluted and 25" long, it is an anchor but a beautiful thing in my eyes. On a mild summer day i could put about 10 rounds through it in 5 minutes or less, and not know if the barrel is warm from the sun or from shooting, seriously! I havent had enough time to really work with projectiles and loads to get it where I want it, although I have found a decent load and projectile, as I use it for hunting in fields of north central AB. Anyways, I havent noticed the grouping change after many shots fired even though ive been careful about heat, it hasnt been a problem in any manner.

The rifle is too heavy though, impractical for any hunting that involves long walks or hiking. I should have got a shorter barrel but it is difficult to shorten it much with the fluting.

Although for me the rifle is intended for a target rifle, that I can also try to get comfortable with 400-500 yard shots and be confident I can make an ethical shot.
I have done a bit of range shooting at 500 yards and can consistently hit a 14" plate block flange as a gong. I would like to tighten the group up gain some skill at 300-500 yard shots and become more consistent at everything through that range. Wether or not I will get where I want will be seen.

I will say though a heavy rifle sure as heck changes the recoil, this anchor of mine can be comfortably shot one handed on a bipod or bags once your used to it, whereas my brothers equivalent unmodded 300wm loaded hot almost jumps out of your hands.

Just my limited experience, hope this adds perspective.
Cody.
 
Obtunded said:
FWIW, I am an avid gopher hunter and in spite of having access to all manner of fancy barrels, I use a bone-stock Remington 700 SPS in 204 Ruger for most of my varmint safaris, and it is both accurate and "stable". I am on my third factory 204. I love them.
Click to expand...

WTH? :eek: You use FACTORY barrels ? Yer #### will fall off! :evil:

Okay, seriously... it's nice and encouraging to read about people wringing as much accuracy as they can from factory tubes! :sniper: Especially on varmints!

Cheers,
Barney
 
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