Draft *** cgn condition definitions for military surplus rifle bores *** draft

Riflechair

Riflechair

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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Please let me know what you think
Let’s make this as easy to understand as possible.
CGN CONDITION DEFINITIONS FOR MILITARY SURPLUS RIFLE BORES

PRODEDURE
Prior to examining the bore and assigning a condition rating it is the due diligence of the seller to thoroughly clean the bore, remove all residue, copper fouling or oxidation from corrosion. Failure to do so will invalidate this evaluation test.

There may be a combination of condition ratings in a single bore. In that case apply a percentage to your evaluation. For example: 70% very good / 30% fair (towards muzzle)

Primer on cleaning military surplus rifle bores that may have seen neglect

AS NEW
perfect condition in every respect.
This rifle is likely unfired or unissued.

EXCELLENT-
The bore shows no signs of wear and is mirror bright
The transition from lands to grooves is razor sharp from muzzle to throat.
There is no throat erosion
Bore is as close to new as possible but the rifle has been used.

VERY GOOD -
Exhibits signs of use by slight rounding of the rifling
No corrosion of any kind
Bore is bright and mirror like in the grooves and the lands
No verifiable throat erosion

GOOD-
Exhibits signs of use by rounding of the rifling
Rifling is consistently strong from muzzle to throat
No corrosion of any kind
Bore no longer shines like a mirror
Slight raspy feel in the throat when passing a brush across it

FAIR-
Rounded but strong and pronounced rifling
Frosty appearance to the rifling and grooves
No pitting

POOR-
Heavy corrosion - visible rust
Rifling is weak and worn out
Bore is dark
Cannot pass a patch down the bore without shredding pieces off
Can still be shot safely

WRECKED-
Unsafe to fire due to (but not limited to)
Bulged chamber
Deformity or constriction in the bore
Bent barrel
Very heavy corrosion
 
Rather than Re-Invent the Wheel Again, there are Four Systems of rating Below. Bore is Disregarded for Collectors Firearms.

http://www.armchairgunshow.com/Condition-NRA-Guns.htm#antique

For the people who don't know how to post Pictures, I really don't think they are even going to take the time to read any rating system.

Just ask for a 3 Day Inspection with No Firing, No Dicking with it, No parts swapping, No Damage. IE: Sent back Exactly the same as you received it.

If you weren't happy with it, ask the seller if you can send it back for refund.
 
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I see a few problems with it.

In no particular order:

1) Many bores are blued and never have nor ever will shine like a mirror. In some cases, rifles even had parkerized bores that needed to experience wear to not look lightly pitted - for example MAS36-51 rifles.

2) It's very possible to have perfectly sharp rifling with zero wear, but with corrosion or pitting. In fact, on Enfields, it's rather common.

3) Throat erosion is a very subjective thing unless one owns erosion gauges. I only ever see these gauges in .30 cal, usually used by Garand collectors. Even if someone lied about this, it would be very hard to proove it was intentional.

4) Good - in most cases if the bore no longer shines, it is corroded. It might just be micro-corrosion from having been lightly surface rusted and then cleaned or shot out. There may not be any identifiable single pits, but what you are seeing is the result of corrosion, unless the bore is so poorly made that you are really seeing machining marks - which brings me to point 5.

5) MANY MANY milsurps have been made that never had a mirror shiny bore to begin with. Wartime mosins spring to mind. Some of them left the factory with cutter chatter or linear machining marks, usually in the grooves. The rifle could quite likely be unissued and still not meet you criteria for being "good" or "very good". Remember, prior tothe 1970's button rifling didn't exist and barrels were either hammer forged (which can give a mirror finish) or were single-point cut, which will only give a mirror finish if the bores are subsequently lapped - many military barrels were not lapped and will show cutter marks.

6) Good - if the rifling has any rounding at all, it likely has throat erosion from normal use. Generally the rifling will not meet the criteria for being consistent from muzzle to throat. If you accept rounding, you should accept that there will be some degree or erosion at the throat.

7) Fair: if you see frosting, you are really seeing pitting. Frosting is a term like "re-arsenalled" or "force matched" which really means "rebuilt" or "renumbered". Frosting is a nice way of saying a bore it pitted.

8) a cleaned poor bore won't have any rust in it, but will have pronounced rust pits. In my view you can have a poor bore with sharp rifling - it need not be weak or worn - just badly rust pitted.

For discussion.
 
i think your very good and excellent should be the same thing. or possibly the as new and excellent. i can see the arguements now, "he said excellent, but there is slight rounding of the rifling".
 
I seem to recall it being mentioned that metford rifleing , arisaka's being the rifle I hear about that the most often, looking worn but being in great shape.
 
How much corrosion is needed for a bore to be unsafe to fire? I have fired some rifles that had bores that were heavily, heavily pitted and were jet black. At times cleaning patches would get ripped up in the bore, yet they still shot somewhat alright.
 
From many of the recurring questions you see on these forums, it probably isn't realistic to expect most people to be able to evaluate and classify a bore in relation to these or any other standards, even if they are willing to try their best. I can see many pi$$ing contests resulting from this in relation to a buyer's expectations.:mad:

The degree of throat erosion (TE) is not possible to determine short of using a gauge. A nice looking bore may exhibit a considerable degree of erosion that can't be measured w/o a gauge for the particular rifle. I have a convertable gauge for Garands in both .30-06 and 7.62 chamberings, but these are meaningless on any other rifle. Ditto for my purpose made TE gauge for the M1903 Springfield. A borescope can be helpful in assessing throat and bore wear, but how many people are prepared to spend the coin on one of these? I have one M1903 Springfield which is one point away from the reject limit on the TE gauge, yet the rifling appears intact, altho rounded through the length of the bore. MW on this one gauges .303, yet it will still produce a 3 inch group.:eek:

Muzzle wear (MW) is another wear dimension that can be gauged. In fact there is a tapered plug gauge available from the trade which will measure the muzzle diameter of .30 cal barrels. Again, how many people have these? You can get a quick and dirty idea of MW on a .30 cal barrel by inserting a .30 cal M2 ball round in the muzzle and looking at where the bullet sits in relation to the cannelure. If the cannelure or case mouth comes to rest flush on the muzzle that indicates a well worn muzzle which will probably wind up gauging .303 or so. The .308 Hornady 150gr FMJBT is also useful as an expedient MW gauge in a .30cal barrel. But don't try to use some other bullets where the ogive is different.

A pitted bore can still be considered servicable, provided that pitting is not too severe ( again a verrry subjective call) and the rifling is in otherwise good shape. The only downside to shooting a pitted (or so-called "frosted" bore) is that the bore will foul more quickly with bullet jacket material. To pick up on an earlier point, some wartime Brit No4 LE barrels had parkerized bores and there is a specific caution in the EMEI against mistaking the resulting streaking from shooting for an unsatisfactory condition until such time as enough shooting has polished up the bore and worn away the parkerizing.
 
Claven2 said:
I see a few problems with it.

In no particular order:

1) Many bores are blued and never have nor ever will shine like a mirror. In some cases, rifles even had parkerized bores that needed to experience wear to not look lightly pitted - for example MAS36-51 rifles.

2) It's very possible to have perfectly sharp rifling with zero wear, but with corrosion or pitting. In fact, on Enfields, it's rather common.

3) Throat erosion is a very subjective thing unless one owns erosion gauges. I only ever see these gauges in .30 cal, usually used by Garand collectors. Even if someone lied about this, it would be very hard to proove it was intentional.

4) Good - in most cases if the bore no longer shines, it is corroded. It might just be micro-corrosion from having been lightly surface rusted and then cleaned or shot out. There may not be any identifiable single pits, but what you are seeing is the result of corrosion, unless the bore is so poorly made that you are really seeing machining marks - which brings me to point 5.

5) MANY MANY milsurps have been made that never had a mirror shiny bore to begin with. Wartime mosins spring to mind. Some of them left the factory with cutter chatter or linear machining marks, usually in the grooves. The rifle could quite likely be unissued and still not meet you criteria for being "good" or "very good". Remember, prior tothe 1970's button rifling didn't exist and barrels were either hammer forged (which can give a mirror finish) or were single-point cut, which will only give a mirror finish if the bores are subsequently lapped - many military barrels were not lapped and will show cutter marks.

6) Good - if the rifling has any rounding at all, it likely has throat erosion from normal use. Generally the rifling will not meet the criteria for being consistent from muzzle to throat. If you accept rounding, you should accept that there will be some degree or erosion at the throat.

7) Fair: if you see frosting, you are really seeing pitting. Frosting is a term like "re-arsenalled" or "force matched" which really means "rebuilt" or "renumbered". Frosting is a nice way of saying a bore it pitted.

8) a cleaned poor bore won't have any rust in it, but will have pronounced rust pits. In my view you can have a poor bore with sharp rifling - it need not be weak or worn - just badly rust pitted.

For discussion.
Click to expand...

Seems to me the issue is corrosion, rust, pitting, and frosting of the bore.

So, to me:

Frosting is a defined, not worn barrel but dull, erosion may be present.

Pitting is from corrosion (corrosive ammo) and rust. Linear corrosion and linear rust can be present as well as pits showing up as patches or areas in the bore. They can be all around or through the bore or on only one side. Corrosion, rust = Pitting is physical damage to the bore. (Frosting is better than pitting or corrosion).

Erosion is from bearing wear from use. Bullets traveling down the bore wear the rifling and the throat. Rounding of the lands is present. You can have a shiny bore with an ample amt of erosion.

JMHO

Pete
 
Many people are not even able nor willing to answer the most simple question to the overall condition of any milsurp or antique gun, many don't even know how to post pictures or often they are very small.

Also dealers don't even bother taking pictures of milsurp rifles, they buy them buy the ton and want to sell them as such, even dealers like Trade Ex sell lemons below what they describe, or some sell rifles with chopped magazines even when they were described as pinned.

Can it get any worse?

So what do you expect with such a rating system?

Read my feedback, I just sold a Enfield Jungle Carbine and the seller gave me a feedback "better than described", this means that a buyer is surprised if a seller is honest, many are in fact not.

Cheers
 
Pblatzz said:
Four rating systems? Sorry, I only see two in any detail. NRA vs Supica's rating system (An Auctioneer). It doesn't describe "Std. Cat. of Firearms definitions" only mentions they can be different when comparing to NRA antique ratings.
Click to expand...

1. NRA Modern
2.NRA Antique
3.Other
4. Supica's
 
Pblatzz said:
Seems to me the issue is corrosion, rust, pitting, and frosting of the bore.

So, to me:

Frosting is a defined, not worn barrel but dull, erosion may be present.

Pitting is from corrosion (corrosive ammo) and rust. Linear corrosion and linear rust can be present as well as pits showing up as patches or areas in the bore. They can be all around or through the bore or on only one side. Corrosion, rust = Pitting is physical damage to the bore. (Frosting is better than pitting or corrosion).

Erosion is from bearing wear from use. Bullets traveling down the bore wear the rifling and the throat. Rounding of the lands is present. You can have a shiny bore with an ample amt of erosion.

JMHO

Pete
Click to expand...

Hi Pete:

I rather suspected someone would voice this opinion, but from a career of working with metals, working in the machine shop, and engineering solutions for metals exposed to sea water - I can assure you frosting is pitting. It's the same thing. Whether dullness is frosting or pitting is a subjective description call on the part of the seller. What is pitting to you is maybe frosting to someone else and vice-versa, but you get neither unless the bore was rusted at some point.
 
Claven2 said:
Hi Pete:

I rather suspected someone would voice this opinion, but from a career of working with metals, working in the machine shop, and engineering solutions for metals exposed to sea water - I can assure you frosting is pitting. It's the same thing. Whether dullness is frosting or pitting is a subjective description call on the part of the seller. What is pitting to you is maybe frosting to someone else and vice-versa, but you get neither unless the bore was rusted at some point.
Click to expand...

Ok, stop being condescending and trying to disqualify someones opinion after posting an opinion and stating "for discussion". Frosting is not as bad as pitting. Pitting is deeper and more severe, wish I could gauge it using a pit gauge but I can't....

The point here is to create a "Standard" to gauge a firearms overall condition consistent with CGN and our systems of values.
 
I'm not trying to be condescending - but there is no physical way for a bore to become frosted shy of having rusted to some degree at some point.
 
Coyote Ugly said:
1. NRA Modern
2.NRA Antique
3.Other
4. Supica's
Click to expand...

That site fails to list "Std. Cat. of Firearms definitions" only mentions they can be different when comparing to NRA antique ratings.

I'm asking because Riflechair has asked to make a "CGN CONDITION DEFINITIONS FOR MILITARY SURPLUS RIFLE BORES"

And there is no reinventing the wheel here?
 
Claven2 said:
I'm not trying to be condescending - but there is no physical way for a bore to become frosted shy of having rusted to some degree at some point.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree, It's not as bad a pitting, it's still pitting but not as bad a pitting. At the same note I agree with "Baal -Photo examples of each would be a big help. "

Do we have mint to crap barrel cross sections to photo?
 
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