Re: Packing an antique to circumvent ATC or CCW laws

[loki_81]

Re: Packing an antique to circumvent ATC or CCW laws

I've come here and made this thread so as to not derail the other thread talking about ATC, and I thought this was the appropriate place. The original thread can be found here; http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=565140

This thread is to educate those that think antiques can be carried in cities to circumvent ATC and CCW laws, and is started in reply of this;

If you are bent on packing, what about carying a handgun that meets the definition “antique firearm” in subsection 84(1) of the Criminal Code? - Just be descrete and avoid having to use it so as not to ruin this rare exception of "antiques" for everyone else. Def'n:

6. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges.

7. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges.

*copied and saved the below from another post a while back, neglected to save author's name.

Under the current legislation, "any antique firearm" is not a "firearm" for the following purposes:
1. Firearms Act: None of the provisions of the Firearms Act, including those requiring registration, licences, ATTs and/or ATCs, apply to any "antique firearm."
2. CC s. 91 and 92: Possession of any "antique firearm" without a licence or registration certificate is legal.
3. CC s. 93: Possession of any "antique firearm" at any location is legal.
4. CC s. 94: Being in a motor vehicle with any "antique firearm" is legal.
5. CC s. 95: Being in possession of a loaded "antique firearm" (which is also a "restricted firearm" or a "prohibited firearm"), or one with readily accessible ammunition is legal even if the person is not the holder of any licence, registration certificate, ATT, or ATC.
6. CC s. 99: Transferring or offering to transfer any "antique firearm" is legal.
7. CC s. 100: Dealing in any type of any "antique firearm" is legal.
8. CC s. 101: Transferring any "antique firearm" is legal if the transfer apparently violates the Firearms Act.
9. CC s. 103 and 104: Importing or exporting any "antique firearm" is legal.
10. CC s. 105: Not reporting the loss or finding of any "antique firearm" is legal.
11. CC s. 106 and 107: Not reporting the destruction of any "antique firearm" is legal, and knowingly making a false report of that type to a firearms official or the police is legal.
12. CC s. 117.03: A peace officer who finds a person in possession of any "antique firearm" is not authorized to demand that the person present a licence, registration certificate, ATT, and/or ATC.

and this;

Yes, that thought has crossed my mind, and truly, I have owned some .455's and .41 LC's and I consider it good, however, I always wondered if that is going to be considered carrying a concealed weapon. I mean possibly you could skirt the firearms charges, because it is not deemed a firearm, however, you would be carrying a weapon, and as seen in other threads, ANYTHING can be a weapon depending on what the police interpret it as.

Now the first quote only outlines where antiques aren't deemed a firearm, not where they are. Such as;

In transport. An antique firearm must be transported unloaded and in a locked opaque container.

ATC or CCW for self defence against humans. Face it, it would be hard to argue intent if you're packing openly or concealed a loaded antique at the corner store or anywhere in city limits, even if section 93 deems possession of antique anywhere to be legal, as you can just as easily leave it in your vehicle if your intent is to head out somewhere to plink some cans. Intent is where it would change the antique status from non firearm to weapon. The intent of the OP in the original thread would be for ATC or CCW for preservation of life against "being the victim of robbery" which would directly be intent for preservation of life against humans.

Being as how you have to transport in a locked container and unloaded that would mean that to pack an antique in city limits you would have to remove it from the container and load it every time you get out of the vehicle, and unload it before entry. You wouldn't want to load it in the vehicle as that would immediately put you in possession of a loaded firearm inside of a vehicle which AFAIK is illegal, and loading it outside of the vehicle would draw the wrong kind of attention. This again would lead back to intent, as the intent in doing this is to protect life from attacks in the city, which the OP from the original thread outlines is to protect life and property from humans.

A good thread to read further on the matter of concealment of antiques is found here; Concealed weapon or not: The bush and animal protection.

So as you can see an antique is not a good option for ATC or CCW within city limits. You can also bet that you're going to get a ERT tactical takedown and your activities headlined in the Toronto Star if seen carrying your antique, legal or not. IMO carrying an antique to circumvent ATC and CCW laws would be easily deemed illegal and open a person to a world of hurt and charges, overall a bad idea.

Other antique nutz please feel free to chime in to the discussion. Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps I missed some valid good points, but I still don't see it as a good idea and would suggest that the OP to the original thread should join the fight for ATC and CCW of modern restricted firearms.

 

[mooncoon]

An antique becomes a firearm as soon as it is used in a crime and if you were packing concealed it becomes a concealed weapon and therefore a firearm and you require the ATC. If the antique gun is not concealed, you are allowed to carry for 2 or 3 minutes until the boys in blue show up etc etc. Even in a wilderness area you need to use considerable discretion because if fellow hikers or hunters see you they are likely to report you for carrying a modern firearm (assuming it is handguns we are talking about)

cheers mooncoon

 

[david doyle]

I kinda thought it was pretty obvious that a legal firearms user would'nt be wandering around with a concealed 9 mm broom handle mauser with a 90 round drum magazine.

I really do not think there is anyone on here stupid enough to need your arguments. If you can't conceal your boy scout knife pretty sure you can't conceal your remy smoot.

99.99 percent of people here just like old guns and making them work. No great agenda and no sketchy behaviour involved.

IMHO if you need CCW tell your MP/councillor/base commander that we need more policing and then stay home till the state provides it. If you can't walk the streets or travel the highways with out fear then you can't very well work and pay taxes..........

 

[loki_81]

I really do not think there is anyone on here stupid enough to need your arguments. If you can't conceal your boy scout knife pretty sure you can't conceal your remy smoot.

Obviously there was one recommending antiques for concealed carry, otherwise this thread wouldn't have existed. I wouldn't call him stupid, just misinformed.

IMHO if you need CCW tell your MP/councillor/base commander that we need more policing and then stay home till the state provides it. If you can't walk the streets or travel the highways with out fear then you can't very well work and pay taxes..........

So very much fail.

An antique becomes a firearm as soon as it is used in a crime and if you were packing concealed it becomes a concealed weapon and therefore a firearm and you require the ATC.

Agreed, guess I glossed over this very valid point.

 

[DEZ]

an antique becomes a firearm as soon as it is used in a crime and if you were packing concealed it becomes a concealed weapon and therefore a firearm and you require the atc. If the antique gun is not concealed, you are allowed to carry for 2 or 3 minutes until the boys in blue show up etc etc. Even in a wilderness area you need to use considerable discretion because if fellow hikers or hunters see you they are likely to report you for carrying a modern firearm (assuming it is handguns we are talking about)

cheers mooncoon

x-2

 

[tactical870]

An antique becomes a firearm as soon as it is used in a crime and if you were packing concealed it becomes a concealed weapon and therefore a firearm and you require the ATC. If the antique gun is not concealed, you are allowed to carry for 2 or 3 minutes until the boys in blue show up etc etc. Even in a wilderness area you need to use considerable discretion because if fellow hikers or hunters see you they are likely to report you for carrying a modern firearm (assuming it is handguns we are talking about)

cheers mooncoon

Agreed. And anyone here feel like trusting their life to a 32 rf anyway?

 

[jethunter]

Mooncoon nailed it.

I'll add that the "boy scout knife argument" might seem to be a vaild comparison but that's not how the court sees it. The concealed firearm is ALWAYS considered a weapon while the concealed pocket knife can be used as a tool in several different ways and the court would decide if the intent was for a weapon or a tool depending on the circumstances. A gun is a weapon and that's the end of that argument in a legal sense.

 

[loki_81]

I'll add that the "boy scout knife argument" might seem to be a vaild comparison but that's not how the court sees it. The concealed firearm is ALWAYS considered a weapon while the concealed pocket knife can be used as a tool in several different ways and the court would decide if the intent was for a weapon or a tool depending on the circumstances. A gun is a weapon and that's the end of that argument in a legal sense.

Although I fully agree with you I should point out one of the most common uses of antique firearms as a tool. A hammer.

 

[cyclone]

And besides , who's going to CCW a Webley ?

 

[jethunter]

Although I fully agree with you I should point out one of the most common uses of antique firearms as a tool. A hammer.

I say if it looks like a tool and acts like a tool - then it's a tool!

 

[Win 38-55]

Relevant to this discussion is the thread http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416638 A concealed antique is always deemed to be a concealed weapon. I sure hope no one ever goes strolling around in some town or city with an antique pistol, concealed or otherwise. That would be bad PR.

 

[Lima]

Obviously there was one recommending antiques for concealed carry, otherwise this thread wouldn't have existed. I wouldn't call him stupid, just misinformed..

LOKI_81 - This thread has spun from a question the OP'er had about how one might carry without ATC (no mention of concealed carry).
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=565140

The OP inquired about what scenarios or loopholes exist that might allow one to carry a firearm that would otherwise require an ATC. I suggested that with Antique (right or wrong) it might be possible to carry. At no point did I mention "concealed" other than the word "discrete" which I take to mean "with discretion", judgment, prudence, caution and carefulness as opposed to "concealed" or hidden.

However I did neglect to: Qualify the use in the bush, address implications of using any concealed weapon with intent, the nature of any item becoming a criminal weapon if used against another and any of the hundreds of legal tangents this can spin into. This should have been implied but it is my bad for not spelling it out - my bad.

I think this is a valid discussion but please don't negatively characterize me based on your incorrect assumption of me recommending concealed antique carry. My intention was merely to point out with antiques how one "can technically" carry without ATT as some do now in the bush.

For the record, I am fine with people discretely carrying antiques in the remote wilderness for protection (sans ATT) but I would honestly not want to see a Webley on someone’s hip at the mall (technically legal or not). No good can come from that especially for we who enjoy our antiques privately.

 

[tumbleweeds13]

If you can not legally discharge a long gun at the location you wish to carry an antique, then your antique had better be in a locked hard case. If you are not "transporting" then you are either using or preparing to use. Since I've never met a town yet that didn't have a "no discharge" law, it would not be legal to discharge said gun. Therefore, locked case. My 2 cents.

 

[cyclone]

If you can not legally discharge a long gun at the location you wish to carry an antique, then your antique had better be in a locked hard case. If you are not "transporting" then you are either using or preparing to use. Since I've never met a town yet that didn't have a "no discharge" law, it would not be legal to discharge said gun. Therefore, locked case. My 2 cents.

What we genuinely need is a "locked-case holster-rig".....

 

[apu]

What we genuinely need is a "locked-case holster-rig".....

There ya go.

 

[jethunter]

I've come here and made this thread so as to not derail the other thread talking about ATC, and I thought this was the appropriate place. The original thread can be found here; http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=565140

This thread is to educate those that think antiques can be carried in cities to circumvent ATC and CCW laws, and is started in reply of this;



and this;



Now the first quote only outlines where antiques aren't deemed a firearm, not where they are. Such as;

In transport. An antique firearm must be transported unloaded and in a locked opaque container.

ATC or CCW for self defence against humans. Face it, it would be hard to argue intent if you're packing openly or concealed a loaded antique at the corner store or anywhere in city limits, even if section 93 deems possession of antique anywhere to be legal, as you can just as easily leave it in your vehicle if your intent is to head out somewhere to plink some cans. Intent is where it would change the antique status from non firearm to weapon. The intent of the OP in the original thread would be for ATC or CCW for preservation of life against "being the victim of robbery" which would directly be intent for preservation of life against humans.

Being as how you have to transport in a locked container and unloaded that would mean that to pack an antique in city limits you would have to remove it from the container and load it every time you get out of the vehicle, and unload it before entry. You wouldn't want to load it in the vehicle as that would immediately put you in possession of a loaded firearm inside of a vehicle which AFAIK is illegal, and loading it outside of the vehicle would draw the wrong kind of attention. This again would lead back to intent, as the intent in doing this is to protect life from attacks in the city, which the OP from the original thread outlines is to protect life and property from humans.

A good thread to read further on the matter of concealment of antiques is found here; Concealed weapon or not: The bush and animal protection.

So as you can see an antique is not a good option for ATC or CCW within city limits. You can also bet that you're going to get a ERT tactical takedown and your activities headlined in the Toronto Star if seen carrying your antique, legal or not. IMO carrying an antique to circumvent ATC and CCW laws would be easily deemed illegal and open a person to a world of hurt and charges, overall a bad idea.

Other antique nutz please feel free to chime in to the discussion. Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps I missed some valid good points, but I still don't see it as a good idea and would suggest that the OP to the original thread should join the fight for ATC and CCW of modern restricted firearms.

So much wrong. CCW is not a legal state for an antique unless the person has a carry permit. Concealed carry = illegal = antique prescribed firearm is reclassified as firearm. End of story.

You won't get a permit unless you are a judge or retired LEO due to the two tiered Canadian legal system which places more value on the members of the judicial system than the rest of our society.

 

[BadLieutenant]

There ya go.

Does it come with the funky belt too?

I want one!!!

Seriously......carrying an antique.....for what? (unless you have very vicious gang bangers living next door and you want to play a little Clint Eastwood with them like in Gran Torino)

Walt Kowalski: "Ever notice how you come across somebody once in a while you shouldn't have ####ed with? That's me."

Sometime I wonder........ Americans with the right to carry get stopped by the police all the time....

 

[cyclone]

There ya go.

No kidding , but if it is double-zippered and there's a lock through both of the sliders' pull-tabs , that'd keep you 100% onside....

 

[loki_81]

LOKI_81 - This thread has spun from a question the OP'er had about how one might carry without ATC (no mention of concealed carry).
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=565140

Correct, you'll notice I have included the link in my first post from the very beginning.

The OP inquired about what scenarios or loopholes exist that might allow one to carry a firearm that would otherwise require an ATC. I suggested that with Antique (right or wrong) it might be possible to carry. At no point did I mention "concealed" other than the word "discrete" which I take to mean "with discretion", judgment, prudence, caution and carefulness as opposed to "concealed" or hidden.
...snip...
I think this is a valid discussion but please don't negatively characterize me based on your incorrect assumption of me recommending concealed antique carry. My intention was merely to point out with antiques how one "can technically" carry without ATT as some do now in the bush.

Yes the OP did inquire about loopholes for ATC, that was with the specific intent to prevent against robbery, using service in the armoured car industry for example. The OP then went on to be presented with the form for preservation of life from individuals, saying that's exaclty what they were looking for.

With this as the direction of the topic it was a poor suggestion to recommend an antique for the loophole. As the OP was pretty clearly wanting to carry for prevention of robbery and preservation of life from individuals.

It's not my intention to negatively characterize you. Yes I do mention concealed carry, but notice that I mention both open and concealed carry, to address both you and any potential readers that could be misled by the quoted post. It was me that brought up concealed carry, as to point out that it wouldn't be a good idea, and as outlined is indeed illegal. This is really for the benefit of other readers, not meant as a slam at you.

Don't forget that everything you post here is read by others; newbs, people who desire lawful ATC and CCW, those who don't know antique laws, and antis. This thread isn't meant as a attack towards you, but an attempt to educate those that read your post from the original thread. I can guarantee that someone who isn't well versed in antiques and desires ATC or CCW would read your post and think it's a great idea, and some would most likely only read "an antique is not a firearm" and go with it. Really your post in the original thread had to be addressed, in case you believed that an antique could be carried in public, and as your post might lead others to believe an antique would be a viable alternative.

I think we all agree that carrying an antique in public for the purpose of preservation of life or property is a horrible idea. Which is what this thread was intended to point out to others.

There ya go.

Now that's awesome. It'd make a pretty inconspicous carry option for those that carry their antiques in the wilderness. Don't see that freaking out too many hikers.

 

[Lima]

This is really for the benefit of other readers, not meant as a slam at you.

Implying it was ME who suggested concealed carry of antique and suggesting I was 'stupid' felt like a poorly aimed shot in my direction - but I'll take the high road.

The point about newbies is spot on and well taken.

Bygones my friend...