Pre-PAL scouting questions.

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Greenwolf

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Hello there, I've searched for awhile on these forums and on Google and I cannot seem to find an answer, so I figured it was time to bite the bullet and ask (pardon the pun).

I am looking to get my PAL this year because I have have a love of firearms and shooting at targets, a interest that really got going after a stint in the reserves. I've been itching to get back out to the range sometime in the foreseeable future just to plink (not looking for competition shooting or hunting.... yet.)


Regardless of the reasons, I'm doing some pre-PAL scouting about what is available on the Canadian firearms market and what I'm looking at in the way of cost. Unfortunately, I'm currently a student and thus not exactly rolling in money (otherwise this would be a moot discussion).

With these things in mind, and my previous experience in the reserves, I had a few ideal firearms in mind. Due to personal preference and experience, I'd prefer my firearm to be chambered in .223/5.56x45mm and feed from AR-15/STANAG-style magazines. This is not required, of course, but extremely preferable.

Well after some scouting I ended up seeing the Kel-Tec SU-16, and seen some decent reviews of it. From what I know of Canadian laws, it should not be prohibited (possibly not even restricted) but I can't find jack about whether or not it is available in Canada.

So, on to the meat of my question: Is the SU-16 available in Canada? If not, is there a recommended similar firearm (keeping in mind my preference for STANAG-fed .223s).

If there are no firearms that meet those preferences, I already have a couple of fall-backs in mind that I have been able to find, but I figured it'd be a good idea to explore my options first.

Thank you very much for your time!
 
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mike177 said:
home defence isn't a valid/legal reason for a PAL/RPAL
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No, but if the author is part of a range he has a legitimate reason for owning one. He/she just has to take some pictures of themselves at the range shooting up some paper so if worst comes to worst in a home defence case they can point out they had it for recreational reasons and not just for defence.
 
mike177 said:
home defence isn't a valid/legal reason for a PAL/RPAL
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Fair enough but it's not the main reason, more of a bonus. I'd just like to know it's there in case s**t really hits the fan, with no real intent to use it unless I feel my life or the life of my family is in imminent danger. If it's going to cause problems I'll take it down.

Regardless the primary reason I want my PAL is my love of putting holes in targets, not people.

Other than that little argument (which I am sure can and has been argued to death elsewhere) does anyone have any hints on the SU-16 or something similar? All I could find on it in Canada is that there was a matter of some debate with the U.S. and Canadian government about the official model (I.E. a Canadian-specific version) but the information looked a little out of date.
 
great you want to own a firearm
bad you want to defend yourself ;-)

here is what i would do right now if i where you : find a legitimate use for the guns and forget about defending yourself with it no i say forget i mean that yes its always a good foretought but here is the thing foretought isnt a good thing in our society anymore so burry that very deep into your cranium and never let it back out again now that dosent mean you cant aim your purchases towards certain tastes

if you like shooting targets go for it and that reason alone is enough the rest is purely coincidental
 
Home defense with a firearm is something that I would not be discussing as it is not legal. I agree with mike177 and bsand and think you should really consider editing your original post. No offence is intended to the OP, I just wouldn't want anything to come of it and would expect the same from other members if I was to post the same! Cheers :D
 
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|eric| said:
great you want to own a firearm
bad you want to defend yourself ;-)

here is what i would do right now if i where you : find a legitimate use for the guns and forget about defending yourself with it no i say forget i mean that yes its always a good foretought but here is the thing foretought isnt a good thing in our society anymore so burry that very deep into your cranium and never let it back out again now that dosent mean you cant aim your purchases towards certain tastes

if you like shooting targets go for it and that reason alone is enough the rest is purely coincidental
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Thanks for the tip, but as previously stated: "...primary reason I want my PAL is my love of putting holes in targets, not people."

I am sorry that this has brought up some controversy, I was not aware that the topic was so contested when I started this. Needless to say I get the message and the original post has been edited, it won't come up again.

Voxx Boxx said:
The Kel-Tec distributor for Canada is Vault Distribution (www. vaultdistribution.com <http://vaultdistribution.com> ) who is a dealer on this forum. Here is the SU-16F thread on their site: http://www.vaultdistribution.com/forum/8-su-16f/52-su-16. Essentially they are waiting for the US Department of State to approve for export (any day now), then classified as non-restricted here by our authorities. I think the targeted retail price is just under $1K.
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Thank you very much, that is very informative.
 
You PC knobs need to take some Metamucil.

While the OP might have chosen the term "home defense" when he really meant "self-defense and the defense of my family", everybody - including a jury - would recognize what he meant. And there was nothing wrong with the OP's OP.

If you want to preach, why don't you go find some people who have put decorative skulls on their firearm? (You'll find them in the photo threads.)
 
Wendell said:
You PC knobs need to take some Metamucil.

While the OP might have chosen the term "home defense" when he really meant "self-defense and the defense of my family", everybody - including a jury - would recognize what he meant. And there was nothing wrong with the OP's OP.

If you want to preach, why don't you go find some people who have put decorative skulls on their firearm? (You'll find them in the photo threads.)
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Clearly I have a lot to learn if I was that unclear. "Home defense" is what came to mind to describe what I was talking about (A firearm in my home to defend myself and family in the event of a worst-case scenario in the home). I suppose the term "self-defense" is more suitable according to Canadian law, it's just when I think of being prepared for self defense I tend to think of things you do all the time to be prepared, like keeping a cell phone on you to call the cops and investing in some martial arts lessons (both perfectly legal and intelligent moves).

So when trying to describe my second reason, self-defense seemed to imply in my mind (and apparently only my mind) that I'd be carrying the firearm with me for self defense all the time... which would be extremely foolish in Canada. I am very much aware that keeping any object with the intent of using it as a weapon in self-defense is a bad idea in Canada.

In short, the misunderstanding is more a matter of my own odd interpretations of what the terms imply not matching up with the general consensus. So I feel a disclaimer is in order: By home defense, I meant defense of myself and my family in the home in the face of potentially lethal danger, not the defense of my property.
 
Greenwolf said:
Clearly I have a lot to learn if I was that unclear. "Home defense" is what came to mind to describe what I was talking about (A firearm in my home to defend myself and family in the event of a worst-case scenario in the home). I suppose the term "self-defense" is more suitable according to Canadian law, it's just when I think of being prepared for self defense I tend to think of things you do all the time to be prepared, like keeping a cell phone on you to call the cops and investing in some martial arts lessons (both perfectly legal and intelligent moves).

So when trying to describe my second reason, self-defense seemed to imply in my mind (and apparently only my mind) that I'd be carrying the firearm with me for self defense all the time... which would be extremely foolish in Canada. I am very much aware that keeping any object with the intent of using it as a weapon in self-defense is a bad idea in Canada.

In short, the misunderstanding is more a matter of my own odd interpretations of what the terms imply not matching up with the general consensus. So I feel a disclaimer is in order: By home defense, I meant defense of myself and my family in the home in the face of potentially lethal danger, not the defense of my property.
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What a joke

This poor fella having to explain Himself because he stated He wants a Gun in His home to defend His family in the event their lives are threatened.


How dare you want to protect your family Sir... How dare you! Everyone in Canada knows a Police Officer on the phone is better then a Gun in your hand! Just beg the Criminals to take what they want and they will probable leave you and your family alone. If they attack instruct your family to curl up in the fetal position and scream for help. When the Police arrive they can interview and investigate. This is how we do it in Canada. This isn't the wild west! where you can defend yourself.
 
Dear god someone answer the poor man's question. Yes it's avaliable in Canada yes it uses AR mags, yes its non restricted so you can take it to the bush and hunt yotes or trees if you so feel (i recommend 3D zombie targets). Um...did I miss anything? I've been told it's a pretty good gun especially for its price. I'm a .308 man myself though. Get yourself some lar or xcr 10 round "pistol" mags. They are legal and fit in ar-15 magwells Here's a link to where you can buy one

http://www.wolverinesupplies.com/details/1590/Kel-Tec-SU-16F-Rifle-223-Rem.aspx
 
voxdei, cheers!

Amazing in all of the responses the OP got how many guys wanted to beat up on him for stating he wants a firearm in the house for family defense.

This man is just doing what Canadians have done for centuries, the very thing that made us such a strong people, he is preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. I understand the screening process would deny his PAL app if He made that statement to them - but perhaps that is something that needs to change.

I personally know many who rest easy being away from home knowing their wife is capable of protecting herself and the kids in their absence should there be an incident that doesn't allow the Police enough time to respond... Guns don't so much help the 200 lb 6 foot tall man in as much as they are the great equalizer for women, and children old enough to responsible handle them, who aside from being armed and aware of what to do in a real bad situation would be helpless victims.



I get a kick out of the Political Correctness in this country, where we are convinced that it is somehow irresponsible to consider a gun as a line of defense for the preservation of our lives. Yet it is not irresponsible when Politicians, Celebrity's, and Police arm themselves and their security for the protection of them and their own.

While these folks are more likely to meet a threat that justifies the use of arms being in the spotlight, it is absolutely foolish to assume common folk wont.

Self Defense is a natural right.
 
FYI, self defense is not illegal in Canada. This topic has been beaten to death here. There are several law enforcement officers who are members on this forum, and they have spoken at great length to this topic. There are several cases in recent history that have fortified and clarified the use of deadly force in a self defense scenario. I suggest you begin with this thread and read on from there:

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?832359-It-s-all-in-what-you-say

Read it and pay attention to the content. It is not illegal to defend oneself using whatever force is reasonably necessary, up to and including deadly force. You can certainly end up in a heap of trouble if you say the wrong thing or take the wrong action. There is a great deal of misinformation out there and confusion among even the veteran members of this board. Bottom line: know the rules, and there are many, and know what to do and say to ensure you are on the right side of the law.

You would do well to read up on recent cases involving firearms and self defense. The legal section is a good place to start. Just be aware there that while there is a lot of information on this board, there is just as much misinformation. You will soon learn to recognize what is real from what is reaction. Lurk moar.
 
mike177 said:
home defence isn't a valid/legal reason for a PAL/RPAL
Click to expand...


Self defense is a valid reason to get a PAL its just rare that they will give it out... They can if they want to or there is a need for it ie you witness the mob do a hit you testified in court they put a hit on you that would be a valid reason for them to issue you a carry permit and license with out even taking the safety course. I did have 1 person tell me he testified against a gang and he was in the witness protection program and he had to carry it around and he even had a card they gave him new name ect. You really don’t see that every day but you do sometimes.

Some trappers have certs that say for wilderness protection on them for example you have a permit to carry while you work in the bush it's common in some places just not all.
 
Greenwolf if you need to defend yourself/family you will use what's available, no need to say what it might be or people get worried over what they law says and what's implied. As you read up more around here you'll understand what's up with our laws. Don't sweat it.

BACK ON TOPIC before the thread get locked down. Dig around in different sections (black rifle for AR15 etc) and you'll start to see what's popular and see common questions. Take your time and check out site sponsors looking for gun a and various prices compared to gun b.
You could go AR but you gotta pay a bit to play, cheapest AR I know of is the Norinco CQ around 699(and that could start arguments just like this thread, readup first then ask if you've got fresh questions) it goes up from there.
I just want to give you some sort of answer other than the defense thing ;)

My advise would be lots of reading & searching on here, good luck.

Edited.
 
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