38-55 vs 45-70 vs 44 russian/spl Cage Match :D

H Wally

H Wally

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Tmes are slow, so here's a fun little debate for everyone.:D

I have a single shot antique project in mind. It is a "fun" project so historical accuracy isn't a goal, and frankly not really possible.

1) The chambering options are: 38-55, 45-70, 44 russian/spl
2) All chamberings will be hand loaded.
3) - 38-55 and 45-70 would be deer/plinking/range purpose, but I don't currently load either cartridge
- 44 russian/spl would be plinking/range and interchangeable with several other guns.


My personal thoughts:

38-55: I quite like this cartridge. Flat shooting, accurate, fun with light recoil but still can shoot the distance. Isn't as likely to nock over a plate on a silhouette match. If pushed to longer ranges will perform better than 45/70.

45-70: A big chunky cartridge. Barrels, reloading equipment, etc easily found/available. Can pack a punch or be loaded down and lob big chunks of lead down range. At lower pressures rainbows have a flatter trajectory than the 45 slug :p At trap door pressures is going to drop lots if pushed out to longer ranges.

44 russian/spl: I already shoot and reload these cartridges, so very very convenient. A fun plinker in a rifle. Can't really think what I would do with it though, especially as a single shot:p:confused:



So - what's your choice, and WHY?
 
I would go for a 38-56 instead of the 55 and use a faster twist barrel to stabilize a 300 grain slug. That gives you more thump on silhouettes and will knock them down at 500 meters. Less recoil that the 45-70 and just as easy to load as any of your choices. I also have a 38-55 and while it is a good plinking cartridge with no recoil, is less dependable on long range silhouettes.

cheers mooncoon
 
Saturday night wrastlin :D

I have and enjoy all three of your choices.
My 38-55 gets the least use only because the rifle that's chambered for it is...precious...
I'm partial to big booms so Ima votin 45-70 even though I just picked up a lever iron in 44spl/mag to keep my SAA company...
 
The 45/70 will knock sillywets down at further ranges than the 38/55, if you use long range pointed bullets and BP in both cals. so if your shooting steel at long range the 45/70 is the best choice. For 200 yard target shooting I'd go with the 38/55 or better still; the 32/40, the most accurate of the bunch.
 
Hmmmm - seems most of the decisions are revolving around the silhoette aspect. I do have another option for that (43mm mauser).... so if I removed silhouette shooting from the criteria, how would people feel about longer range target shooting with the 38-55? I know the 45-70 has the required mass at distances to nock over a heavy plate, but wondering if the 38-55 has the edge in regards to accuracy for paper punching.


mooncoon said:
I would go for a 38-56 instead of the 55 and use a faster twist barrel to stabilize a 300 grain slug. That gives you more thump on silhouettes and will knock them down at 500 meters. Less recoil that the 45-70 and just as easy to load as any of your choices. I also have a 38-55 and while it is a good plinking cartridge with no recoil, is less dependable on long range silhouettes.

cheers mooncoon
Click to expand...

I did a little searching, and if I'm right, the 38-56 is basically a 45-70 case bottle necked down to 38? Read that with a lot of patience a 45-70 case can be necked down using the plain dies.... sounds like a lot of work, but doable.

Just looking at dies... can you think of any reason why the die sets range in cost from $36 USD (Lee) to $80 USD (Redding) to $170 USD (RCBS originals and Shiloh sharps)? I'm guessing there's a difference but can't find any info on what that is....

BrotherRockeye said:
Saturday night wrastlin :D

I have and enjoy all three of your choices.
My 38-55 gets the least use only because the rifle that's chambered for it is...precious...
I'm partial to big booms so Ima votin 45-70 even though I just picked up a lever iron in 44spl/mag to keep my SAA company...
Click to expand...

Yep - my mind's wandering in strange places:p

So should I interpret what you're saying as: 45-70 is fun, versatile, and easy to shoot (reload and fire)?

If your guns were all the same (no repeating lever guns or fears of hurting the value of the gun) do you think you might choose to shoot the 44 spl/mag due to cheapness of components or the 38-55 for the extra accuracy/ease of shooting?


ben hunchak said:
The 45/70 will knock sillywets down at further ranges than the 38/55, if you use long range pointed bullets and BP in both cals. so if your shooting steel at long range the 45/70 is the best choice. For 200 yard target shooting I'd go with the 38/55 or better still; the 32/40, the most accurate of the bunch.
Click to expand...

I would consider the 32-40 however I think it falls just short of the minimum bore diameter for rifle antique status requirements.
 
I'm kinda partial to my 45 colt martini. Lots of knock down power for deer up close and still little or no recoil. It's accurate and super easy (and cheap) to load for too. Not great for real long range work but hotter rifle loads should still reach out and touch stuff.
 
with the longer ranges out of the equation I would opt for 44spl.(or mag ;) )
because...
it's a great round
you already load for it
you can carry,literally, 2-1 over 45-70
no felt recoil in a rifle
and I'm partial to 44spl myself... :rolleyes:
 
I'd pick .38-55. But that's just me. I have several .45-70's and a few of the longer .45 cal cases too. Next is going to be a .38-55 set up for breech seating, schuetzen style, for 200m paper shooting.

With respect to long range (paper) shooting, if that's your thing, you might want to check out the Shiloh board and read some of Dan Theodore's posts. He's been a big proponent of the smaller calibres even out to 1000 yards. Mind you those are generally cases with more powder capacity than the .38-55 IIRC.

Good luck with your project.

Chris.
 
H Wally said:
how would people feel about longer range target shooting with the 38-55?

I did a little searching, and if I'm right, the 38-56 is basically a 45-70 case bottle necked down to 38? Read that with a lot of patience a 45-70 case can be necked down using the plain dies.... sounds like a lot of work, but doable.

Just looking at dies... can you think of any reason why the die sets range in cost from $36 USD (Lee) to $80 USD (Redding) to $170 USD (RCBS originals and Shiloh sharps)? I'm guessing there's a difference but can't find any info on what that is....
Click to expand...

I don't think it makes a lot of difference which caliber out to 4 - 500 yards. I would not chose the 44 special however because it is a pistol cartridge with a short bullet and I would not expect it to be as accurate at long range as the longer bullets.
I make my 38-56 shells from 45-70 shells and I don't recall making a forming die although it would probably be prudent to come down in two steps instead of one big one.
My reason for liking the smaller calibers is they use less lead and less recoil.

I am not sure why such a big price difference in different brands of dies. I would wonder if all of the choices are full length sizing dies or if they are neck sizing only. Since you will have to form your cases the first time, it is important to have full length sizing dies.

cheers mooncoon
 
mooncoon said:
I don't think it makes a lot of difference which caliber out to 4 - 500 yards. I would not chose the 44 special however because it is a pistol cartridge with a short bullet and I would not expect it to be as accurate at long range as the longer bullets.
I make my 38-56 shells from 45-70 shells and I don't recall making a forming die although it would probably be prudent to come down in two steps instead of one big one.
My reason for liking the smaller calibers is they use less lead and less recoil.

I am not sure why such a big price difference in different brands of dies. I would wonder if all of the choices are full length sizing dies or if they are neck sizing only. Since you will have to form your cases the first time, it is important to have full length sizing dies.

cheers mooncoon
Click to expand...

I'm not too concerned about shooting long range with 44 spl/44 russian ammo. It would be more as a fun carbine if it were in that chambering.


I'll check if any are full vs neck dies. It's a good point.
 
I absolutely love the 38/55 in my vintage rolling block. Very little recoil, and very accurate with the Lyman 330 grain BPCR mould. I wouldn't mind having one in 45/70 or even in 44 russian/special, but I don't have enough time to shoot the ones I have already.
 
I just aquired my first 38-55 and was very impressed with the acuracy it's a wichester high wall with a new barrel and no I didn't butcher up the original .
 
gunlaker said:
With respect to long range (paper) shooting, if that's your thing, you might want to check out the Shiloh board and read some of Dan Theodore's posts. He's been a big proponent of the smaller calibres even out to 1000 yards. Mind you those are generally cases with more powder capacity than the .38-55 IIRC.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that Dan T. (AKA hp420guy) is more of a statistician then real world shooter. He has the time to experiment with loads, alloys, and everything else to make finicky stuff work. Even that is subjective information at best. I'm just getting into the world of .40's, but found the .45's fairly easy to get to shoot.

And before you get all defensive of Dan, don't get me wrong, he knows his stuff, and even I've benefitted from his posts and the occassional article in the BPC News. Ask yourself, how is someone of such vast knowledge only a AA class BPCR silhouette shooter?

I'd say put me down for all three cartridges, they each fill their own use with little or no overlap I'd say.
 
H Wally said:
Not really - the 45-70 is already capable of pushing the action to potential, so a 45-90 cartridge would be somewhat redundant.
Click to expand...
In fact the 45-90 would be easier on the action. At equal MV's, it will operate at lower pressure.
 
Andy said:
In fact the 45-90 would be easier on the action. At equal MV's, it will operate at lower pressure.
Click to expand...

Interesting. If you have a minute, would you mind explaining (in the thread or via PM)? I'm interested in how this works.

What would the benefit of a longer cartridge be if the muzzle velocities were the same, other than lower action pressures? My action is limited to trapdoor pressures, so I'm capped there. (28 000 CUP I believe... going by memory).

It's a 71/84 action by the way, that is now permanently single shot.


As it stands I'm not sure the action would fit a 45/90 as well. I can't find anything on the average OAL of 45/90 to get a ballpark idea of if it would fit when loaded up (and I have yet to buy Cartridges of the World:redface::p )
 
H Wally said:
(and I have yet to buy Cartridges of the World:redface::p )
Click to expand...

I won't hold that against you...But...:p
45-90 case length: 2.40" Ctge. length: 2.88". Large primer used. Recommended twist rate: 32
Unfortunately, there were no pressures given.
45-70 case length: 2.105" Ctge. length: 2.55"

Regardless of choice, I hope this is of some help....
 
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