"mankiller" lee enfield

cz858hunter

cz858hunter

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the s*** end of ontario, but my soul is still up i
my friend has an older lee enfield that he uses for deer hunting. one night at the camp we got into a discusion about how it would always either hit high or low, but never to the left or right. an older man told us something that got me thinking. the gun has the origional military peep sights. if youv shot one of these you know the front sight is simply a stick that makes an upside down T within the circle. the man explained to us that the purpose of this design is to take aim on a human body as they are military rifles. the body of a human is vertical or straight up and down while the body of a deer is horizontal. made sense to me. does anybody have any tips or insight on how to compensate for this "mankiller" sight?
 
cz858hunter said:
my friend has an older lee enfield that he uses for deer hunting. one night at the camp we got into a discusion about how it would always either hit high or low, but never to the left or right. an older man told us something that got me thinking. the gun has the origional military peep sights. if youv shot one of these you know the front sight is simply a stick that makes an upside down T within the circle. the man explained to us that the purpose of this design is to take aim on a human body as they are military rifles. the body of a human is vertical or straight up and down while the body of a deer is horizontal. made sense to me. does anybody have any tips or insight on how to compensate for this "mankiller" sight?
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sure, have your friend give your gun to me. that should solve the problem:rockOn:
 
Man killer sights ? ?

cz858hunter said:
my friend has an older lee enfield that he uses for deer hunting. one night at the camp we got into a discusion about how it would always either hit high or low, but never to the left or right. an older man told us something that got me thinking. the gun has the origional military peep sights. if youv shot one of these you know the front sight is simply a stick that makes an upside down T within the circle. the man explained to us that the purpose of this design is to take aim on a human body as they are military rifles. the body of a human is vertical or straight up and down while the body of a deer is horizontal. made sense to me. does anybody have any tips or insight on how to compensate for this "mankiller" sight?
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You can compensite for this "mankiller" sight by learning to shoot properly, and by not believeing a lot of the B.S. and myths you read or hear.

When you use open V type sights, you have three things to line up....the target, the front sight, and the rear V sight. The eye can focus on one of these sharply, and the other two are a bit out of focus.

With an aperture rear sight (the one with the hole in it), your eye looks through the hole and automatically centers on the hole, so you have only two things to concentrate on, the front sight and the target. You must properly adjust the sights for YOUR eyes and method of holding on target.

There are two positions that you can use to hold the front sight on. A center hold positions the TIP of the front sight in the center of the target such as a bulls eye target. The other way is to zero the rifle so that you hold just below the bulls eye target again with the TIP of the front sight, so that you sort of balance the bulls eye on top of the front sight.

In both cases, the actual aiming point is the TIP or TOP of the front sight post.

A deer is about 18 inches high in the body, while a man is over twice that. Because bullets drop when fired, if your aim is not correct, or your sights have been set wrong, there is a better chance to hit a human target at longer or unknown ranges than a Deer as there is less margin of error.

It should be obvious that if the rifle is sighted to hit correctly at 100 yards, then a target at 500 yards would not be hit, as the bullet would strike in front of it. That is why rear sights can be elevated and are marked at different ranges, so that they can be adjusted so that the bullet strikes the target at longer ranges.

But it is a good story.
.
 
I haven't heard that one for 30 years. Lee Enfield owners love to strip down the rifles and leave out the spacer on the king screw. They also don't have a clue as the to bedding of the receiver to the fore stock. When these stocks are cut down by bubba, all sorts of things go awry.

There were all kinds of excuses and it created a bad name for the 303 British cartridge, along with the Lee Enfield system rifles. They got names like bumper jack handles and rumors that the "Army" bent the barrels on purpose before they sold them off for surplus. Another thing with many, especially some that carried them, is that they were designed to kill men and because of this weren't a satisfactory hunting rifle or round. While they un cased their 30-06.

CZ858Hunter, the bedding on your rifle is bad and more than likely the king screw spacer is missing. It sure sounds like it anyway. If you can find the right person, it's a simple fix. If the fore stock has been cut back for sport shooting, it can be glass bedded, rather than glueing and carving new ways.

Because you only have vertical stringing, I don't think you have a cracked forestock It's possible though. If the rifle is a No1 style, many people take the butt off before they take the fore stock off. The No1 bolts went all the way through the butt socket and there was a square protrusion on the end of the bolt that was supposed to be positioned in a cut out in the strap plate. This was to stop it from backing out. It must have been considered a problem by the military, because they had a spring washer under the bolt head as well. If the butt is removed first, the square end of the bolt will cause the fore stock to split. Then after it's fired a few times, the ways get beaten up. The No1 rifles were designed to have pressure under the barrel about half way down the stock as well. This was accomplished with a spring and plunger assembly.
 
cz858hunter said:
The purpose of this design is to take aim on a human body as they are military rifles. the body of a human is vertical or straight up and down while the body of a deer is horizontal. Does anybody have any tips or insight on how to compensate for this "mankiller" sight?
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I would take most of the "Learn how to shoot" responses with a grain of salt. That kind of response reflects their limitations not yours. You posed a serious question so I will attempt to give you a serious answer. I believe I understand the message the old man was trying to convey to you - and he is correct.

The Peep sights on the No4Mk1 lee enfield rifle have a large diameter 300 yard battle sight and a flip up sight with a smaller aperature which has calibrations for different ranges. Note: Some of these are 300 / 600 yard flip sights in which case you really need to pay attention to the following (note the 300 / 600 flip sight in the pic below).

The battle sight (mankiller?) has a point of impact that is roughly 6" high at 100 yards when properly zeroed. Soldiers were trained to shoot at centre of mass (as best as possble) so when snap shooting at targets at variable ranges (out to 400 yards) you are very likely to hit somewhere on a vertically associated target without setting your sights for distance. You may not hit precisely where you might be aiming but you will likely make contact somewhere on the target. If you would like a primer on how to zero the lee enfield rifle I have a lesson plan for you on my blog - See my signature link.

The Germans did the same with their K98k mausers. Most folks will realize that their point of impact is six (or more) inches higher than their point of aim at 100m with these rifles as well.

The flip up sight is generally used for more precise shooting when time for thinking and proper marksmanship techniques were available.

Thus the old man is correct in advising you to be careful if you are going to shoot at a deer using the battle sight. You could very well be shooting over top of it or placing the bullet in a wounding location rather than a kill shot.

The best way to compensate for this is to know where your zero is and stick to shooting at that range. If the target is further out and you want to make the best shot possible you may need to stalk the animal to close the distance. You may need to do this until you are absolutely sure how to set your rear sight correctly for various ranges. I keep a record of the clicks I need to adjust my sights on my rifle because it is very easy to forget. I also recommend you stick to one AMMO LOT (or reloading formulation) once you get your rifle zeroed for consistency reasons.

A lot of chaps think lee enfields are junk (especially in the USA). They think this way because they do not understand lee enfields. Those that understand lee enfields absolutely ADORE them because of the broad spectrum of reliability, adjustability, adaptability, durability, practicality and accuracy that is associated with them. I don't know of too many 70+ year old weapon platforms that are still on the scale of issue for the military. That says something in and of itself about the lee enfield rifle.

HPIM3348.jpg
 
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Whoa there, riflechair, If folks in the U.S. think Enfields are junk, then I must have around 200 pieces of "junk";)
Does that make me a junk collector?

ON the other hand I do have one "good rifle"? a 98 Turkish mouser.

Junk is what happens to an Enfield when bubba gits around ta sportyizing it.
Enfields, "putting round holes in square heads for around a hundred years."
What other 100 year old military rifle is STILL in service in parts of the world
 
I speak in very broad generalities. Most US folks I know think they're junk but you're right. Not a fair statement, it was ignorant of me. I hope I haven't offended you John.

John Sukey said:
Whoa there, riflechair, If folks in the U.S. think Enfields are junk, then I must have around 200 pieces of "junk";)
Does that make me a junk collector?

ON the other hand I do have one "good rifle"? a 98 Turkish mouser.

Junk is what happens to an Enfield when bubba gits around ta sportyizing it.
Enfields, "putting round holes in square heads for around a hundred years."
What other 100 year old military rifle is STILL in service in parts of the world
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stevebc said:
I think someone was pulling your leg. :)
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I don't think so, these rifles we're made to shoot men, and these sights are perfect for that. Very easy to aim at a standing sillouette with those sights. You basicly just put the vertical bar on the target and you're pretty sure to get a hit.
 
From the original post it sounds like a bubba'd gun with a bedding problem resulting in vertical stringing of shots. Nothing to do with the sights on it.
 
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