Surplus ammo and Ruger Mini 30
- Thread starter Guillohm B.
- Start date
#1bcshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- North Of The DMZ (US border)
Shot lots . No problems
I had some concerns with mine with surplus ammo. The surplus ammo had hard primers and my Mini 30 would light strike the primer on a regular basis. The simple fix was to put in a Wolff extra power hammer spring. Problem solved. There was also no problem with standard factory ammo with softer primers.
You can do that however it is possible you could damage the firing pin. This, apparently, has happened in some mini 30's. Getting another firing pin from Ruger can be an issue so I am told. I am not speaking from personal experience as I shoot reloads only in my mini 30 but have been told by others and have read it on other forums that Ruger doesn't like it if you change their trigger assembly in any way. You might want to research it a bit more.
You can do that however it is possible you could damage the firing pin. This, apparently, has happened in some mini 30's. Getting another firing pin from Ruger can be an issue so I am told. I am not speaking from personal experience as I shoot reloads only in my mini 30 but have been told by others and have read it on other forums that Ruger doesn't like it if you change their trigger assembly in any way. You might want to research it a bit more.
I have lost count of surplus ammo I have put through my mini 30 and SKS over the years......cases. I have had no FTF or function concerns with my mini 30 with the Wolff springs installed.....
#1bcshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- North Of The DMZ (US border)
You can do that however it is possible you could damage the firing pin. This, apparently, has happened in some mini 30's. Getting another firing pin from Ruger can be an issue so I am told. I am not speaking from personal experience as I shoot reloads only in my mini 30 but have been told by others and have read it on other forums that Ruger doesn't like it if you change their trigger assembly in any way. You might want to research it a bit more.
LOL
Who cares what Ruger likes. Once the gun is sold its not there property any more.
LOL
Who cares what Ruger likes. Once the gun is sold its not there property any more.
That is very true until you try and get a replacement firing pin. Then it is their property and they don't like, for liability reasons, to have people modify their product. They have been successfully sued already in the past. I am sure most people will use the stronger aftermarket spring and not have an issue. I did feel it was worth mentioning as Ruger can be difficult if you have modified the trigger assembly in any way.
I knew I would get flack for mentioning this but still felt it was worth saying something. Be warned is all.
So if I understand well, by keeping the original hammer spring, the worst that could happen is a surplus round not discharging (Can the primer ignite later on ie: once removed from the chamber?). But there should not be any damage the gun.
#1bcshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- North Of The DMZ (US border)
That is very true until you try and get a replacement firing pin. Then it is their property and they don't like, for liability reasons, to have people modify their product. They have been successfully sued already in the past. I am sure most people will use the stronger aftermarket spring and not have an issue. I did feel it was worth mentioning as Ruger can be difficult if you have modified the trigger assembly in any way.
I knew I would get flack for mentioning this but still felt it was worth saying something. Be warned is all.
Numrich sells Ruger mini 30 firing pins for $31.65
And believe it or not they don't even ask why you want one !
lol
Just try shooting surplus in your rifle,you may not have a problem in your Mini 30. There will be no damaged caused if a FTF occurs. You will see the primer dimpled thats it. If you run the same round through again for the second time it will fire. The biggest thing you have to remember with surplus is make sure you give you rifle a good cleaning even if you shoot only one round.
This was taken off the Perfect Union website. It was written by a gunsmith who works on Rugers. It's kind of long but an interesting read:
There have been many posts lately about firing pins, and while I usually stay out of such things I wanted to share some thoughts if you have time for this lengthy post.
First, Ruger firing pins don’t break very often. I’m sorry for those who have experienced a broken pin and had to go through the time and expense of replacing a firing pin, but the percent that break is actually quite small. I want to discuss why they break, but this post is by no means an end-all of reasons.
Most of you have heard about firing pin breaking and needing to send the rifle back to Ruger for repair. This is true. Ruger does not offer “restricted parts” for sale to anyone, not even experienced gunsmiths. Why are they restricted? – Because Ruger said so. For the purpose of this post restricted parts are those parts that each manufacturer has decided to restrict the sale of and insist on factory installation. Most every gun manufacturer has a couple or more restricted parts that they will only sell to qualified people or simply not at all. That’s their prerogative to do so. I’m sure Ruger does it for liability since one – they’re self insured, and two – one in maybe fifty gun owners could fit one properly. A trip back to the factory is usually not a big deal, but if you’ve had your rifle modified – i.e. changed the factory specifications, Ruger will charge you for replacement factory parts and the labor to do so. Again it’s a liability issue and to a lesser extent reputation management. Few gun accidents occur where the operator readily admits to causing the problem, and Ruger doesn’t need bad press. So whether or not your Mini has been modified you’re looking to avoid a trip to the factory and/or have a few spares on hand for the popular SHTF scenario. I’ll add some more paranoia that in just a bit. But first…..
Maybe you understand how things work, and if you do then skip this part. For those that don’t let’s examine the firing pin’s role in the firing of the rifle. The hammer spring stores the energy needed to move the hammer once the primary trigger sear releases it. It not only has to overcome the inertia of a rather large body at rest, but most provide enough energy to the hammer to transfer it to the firing pin. Let’s consider:
1. Reduced power, shortened, or old and weakened springs may not have enough storage capacity to get the job done. To step to the side just a bit, never lighten the hammer spring or allow anyone doing a trigger job to do so. In general reduced power springs do not cause broken firing pins.
2. Extra Power hammer springs can cause breakage. The reason many folks install extra power springs is to reliably fire imported and/or mil-surp ammo, even though your owner’s manual specifically recommends against using it. While it may allow you to shoot cheaper ammo, or in the case of the mini30 the only available ammo in your area, extra power is detrimental. The gun was designed to a certain spec and tolerance and the factory spring was chosen for a reason.
So the hammer has contacted the firing pin and transferred its energy to the pin. The pin then transfers the energy to the primer for ignition. That’s the simplified way of explaining it. The way the firing pin absorbs and transfers the energy is crucial. It must do both in a linear, straight line fashion. No flexing, no bending. The reason is simple; the center of the pin is only half diameter. The center is machined (or cast) as a half circle of the firing pin diameter so that the extractor can retain it in the bolt. This makes the center portion of the pin quite weak in comparison and must transfer the energy in a straight line as a result. Just as important is the amount of energy it must transfer and dissipate. The pin, and the proper fitting thereof, allow for a specific amount if travel – or more accurately a range of travel. Too little and you get spotty ignition. Too much and you get pierced primers.
A word here on pierced primers. The primer not only has to ignite the powder in the case, but it has to contain it as well. The expanding gases in the case are expanding in all directions, including towards your face. If you look at modern bolt rifles you’ll see a hole in the receiver ring and/or holes in your bolt. These are to vent the gases out away from your face in the event of a pierced primer or case head separation by allowing them to escape to the side or down into the magazine. That hole in the side of your Remington 700 receiver isn’t for oil; it’s to save your face. Do you see that on your Mini? No. Proper firing pin fitting is paramount with high pressure cases like the .223, 6.8SPC and the lesser 7.62x39 cartridge. These high pressures and the ability to contain them were one reason the Ruger XGI never went to market.
Back to the firing pin. Travel is limited by two features – 1) The firing pin tail and 2) the tapered head of the firing pin. So the firing pin goes from a lazy afternoon rest to a sudden sprint towards the primer. Then it has to abruptly stop. Contact and energy exchange with the primer slow it only minutely and helps cushion the stop, much like a buffer. Without the tapered section of the pin head getting too big to fit thought the firing pin hole in the bolt the pin would stretch a little as the tail stopped. Stretching metal weakens it. The tail being improperly fitted will allow the head of the pin to enlarge the hole and travel further, again stretching it. This brings us back to the extra power hammer spring. The pin was designed and metals chosen to accept the forces of moving and stopping and provide sufficient power for domestic ammunition. You wouldn’t use a sledge hammer to drive a finish nail would you? Maybe, but the nail loses….and so does your firing pin. Hard primers in imported or mil-surp ammo limit the pin’s travel by resisting the pin’s energy. That’s why the extra power spring was installed, to overcome the resistance and get ignition. But since it stops prematurely i.e., the tip travel has been limited while the tail is still quite under power creates a bend in the weakest part of the pin – the middle. Yes, you got ignition with the cheap ammo, but that pin isn’t cheap if it breaks.
This brings me to the replacement pin whether for repair or a spare. Ruger won’t sell it to you or me without doing the installation. As has been mentioned elsewhere you could shove a broken aftermarket pin in the bolt and have Ruger fit a factory one. Ethical or not is a matter for your own morals, it’s going to be expensive to buy and break a pin and have a new one fitted. So let’s look at that aftermarket pin, specifically the GlendArms part. I’ve seen lots of them and they’re so very close to factory that minor if any fitting is needed. The issue I have with them and others have discovered is that they are quite brittle and break much more frequently than the factory part. Bad metallurgy, bad heat treat – I don’t know. Just my experience… they break. I’ve tried annealing (softening them by heat) and case hardening. Still unacceptable failure rates to those that need a functioning rifle when the zombies come. I explored sand casting my own pins, but haven’t gotten around to it yet. The part could probably be CNC machined, but I don’t have that kind of equipment or the funds to let someone else experiment. Maybe someone will make an acceptable pin replacement soon. Maybe one of you.
To add to the paranoia as I teased with earlier, how prepared are you to change a pin? I never hear anyone wanting to stock up on emergency pins mention the extractor plunger and spring. Remember, the extractor retains the firing pin. The extractor is retained by a tiny little plunger on a stout spring. Lose the plunger and you’re out the game. Luckily these parts are available from Brownells in the factory parts section. If you’ve watched my video on Mini bolts I showed you how small they were and the difficulty in disassembling and reassembling the bolt. I’ve lost more than one and I do it for a living. Try doing it under stress or in the field. Get the parts and keep them with your spare parts cache.
So to sum up the most common causes of firing pin breakage:
1. Non-domestic, non-commercial ammunition.
2. Extra power hammer springs.
3. Excessive dry firing, which admittedly is hard to quantify, but allows the pin to protrude without a primer to cushion the stop.
4. Quality control. Simply put, bad parts get out. They may be stressed or otherwise susceptible to breakage soon out of the box. There will always be bad parts in mass production due to tolerances and random sampling.
5. Obstructed bolts. I didn’t touch on this, but you’d be amazed at the amount of crap inside the bolt. Old oils, brass shavings, dirt, rust – all contribute to impeding the firing pin’s travel resulting in flexing which we’ve already decided is bad. It also acts like a grinding stone every time the retention slot in the pin rubs the extractor tail thinning out an already weak spot even more. Clean your bolt every year or so depending on use and definitely on out of the box guns.
http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/ruger-mini-14-mini-30/79881-firing-pins-long-post.html
There have been many posts lately about firing pins, and while I usually stay out of such things I wanted to share some thoughts if you have time for this lengthy post.
First, Ruger firing pins don’t break very often. I’m sorry for those who have experienced a broken pin and had to go through the time and expense of replacing a firing pin, but the percent that break is actually quite small. I want to discuss why they break, but this post is by no means an end-all of reasons.
Most of you have heard about firing pin breaking and needing to send the rifle back to Ruger for repair. This is true. Ruger does not offer “restricted parts” for sale to anyone, not even experienced gunsmiths. Why are they restricted? – Because Ruger said so. For the purpose of this post restricted parts are those parts that each manufacturer has decided to restrict the sale of and insist on factory installation. Most every gun manufacturer has a couple or more restricted parts that they will only sell to qualified people or simply not at all. That’s their prerogative to do so. I’m sure Ruger does it for liability since one – they’re self insured, and two – one in maybe fifty gun owners could fit one properly. A trip back to the factory is usually not a big deal, but if you’ve had your rifle modified – i.e. changed the factory specifications, Ruger will charge you for replacement factory parts and the labor to do so. Again it’s a liability issue and to a lesser extent reputation management. Few gun accidents occur where the operator readily admits to causing the problem, and Ruger doesn’t need bad press. So whether or not your Mini has been modified you’re looking to avoid a trip to the factory and/or have a few spares on hand for the popular SHTF scenario. I’ll add some more paranoia that in just a bit. But first…..
Maybe you understand how things work, and if you do then skip this part. For those that don’t let’s examine the firing pin’s role in the firing of the rifle. The hammer spring stores the energy needed to move the hammer once the primary trigger sear releases it. It not only has to overcome the inertia of a rather large body at rest, but most provide enough energy to the hammer to transfer it to the firing pin. Let’s consider:
1. Reduced power, shortened, or old and weakened springs may not have enough storage capacity to get the job done. To step to the side just a bit, never lighten the hammer spring or allow anyone doing a trigger job to do so. In general reduced power springs do not cause broken firing pins.
2. Extra Power hammer springs can cause breakage. The reason many folks install extra power springs is to reliably fire imported and/or mil-surp ammo, even though your owner’s manual specifically recommends against using it. While it may allow you to shoot cheaper ammo, or in the case of the mini30 the only available ammo in your area, extra power is detrimental. The gun was designed to a certain spec and tolerance and the factory spring was chosen for a reason.
So the hammer has contacted the firing pin and transferred its energy to the pin. The pin then transfers the energy to the primer for ignition. That’s the simplified way of explaining it. The way the firing pin absorbs and transfers the energy is crucial. It must do both in a linear, straight line fashion. No flexing, no bending. The reason is simple; the center of the pin is only half diameter. The center is machined (or cast) as a half circle of the firing pin diameter so that the extractor can retain it in the bolt. This makes the center portion of the pin quite weak in comparison and must transfer the energy in a straight line as a result. Just as important is the amount of energy it must transfer and dissipate. The pin, and the proper fitting thereof, allow for a specific amount if travel – or more accurately a range of travel. Too little and you get spotty ignition. Too much and you get pierced primers.
A word here on pierced primers. The primer not only has to ignite the powder in the case, but it has to contain it as well. The expanding gases in the case are expanding in all directions, including towards your face. If you look at modern bolt rifles you’ll see a hole in the receiver ring and/or holes in your bolt. These are to vent the gases out away from your face in the event of a pierced primer or case head separation by allowing them to escape to the side or down into the magazine. That hole in the side of your Remington 700 receiver isn’t for oil; it’s to save your face. Do you see that on your Mini? No. Proper firing pin fitting is paramount with high pressure cases like the .223, 6.8SPC and the lesser 7.62x39 cartridge. These high pressures and the ability to contain them were one reason the Ruger XGI never went to market.
Back to the firing pin. Travel is limited by two features – 1) The firing pin tail and 2) the tapered head of the firing pin. So the firing pin goes from a lazy afternoon rest to a sudden sprint towards the primer. Then it has to abruptly stop. Contact and energy exchange with the primer slow it only minutely and helps cushion the stop, much like a buffer. Without the tapered section of the pin head getting too big to fit thought the firing pin hole in the bolt the pin would stretch a little as the tail stopped. Stretching metal weakens it. The tail being improperly fitted will allow the head of the pin to enlarge the hole and travel further, again stretching it. This brings us back to the extra power hammer spring. The pin was designed and metals chosen to accept the forces of moving and stopping and provide sufficient power for domestic ammunition. You wouldn’t use a sledge hammer to drive a finish nail would you? Maybe, but the nail loses….and so does your firing pin. Hard primers in imported or mil-surp ammo limit the pin’s travel by resisting the pin’s energy. That’s why the extra power spring was installed, to overcome the resistance and get ignition. But since it stops prematurely i.e., the tip travel has been limited while the tail is still quite under power creates a bend in the weakest part of the pin – the middle. Yes, you got ignition with the cheap ammo, but that pin isn’t cheap if it breaks.
This brings me to the replacement pin whether for repair or a spare. Ruger won’t sell it to you or me without doing the installation. As has been mentioned elsewhere you could shove a broken aftermarket pin in the bolt and have Ruger fit a factory one. Ethical or not is a matter for your own morals, it’s going to be expensive to buy and break a pin and have a new one fitted. So let’s look at that aftermarket pin, specifically the GlendArms part. I’ve seen lots of them and they’re so very close to factory that minor if any fitting is needed. The issue I have with them and others have discovered is that they are quite brittle and break much more frequently than the factory part. Bad metallurgy, bad heat treat – I don’t know. Just my experience… they break. I’ve tried annealing (softening them by heat) and case hardening. Still unacceptable failure rates to those that need a functioning rifle when the zombies come. I explored sand casting my own pins, but haven’t gotten around to it yet. The part could probably be CNC machined, but I don’t have that kind of equipment or the funds to let someone else experiment. Maybe someone will make an acceptable pin replacement soon. Maybe one of you.
To add to the paranoia as I teased with earlier, how prepared are you to change a pin? I never hear anyone wanting to stock up on emergency pins mention the extractor plunger and spring. Remember, the extractor retains the firing pin. The extractor is retained by a tiny little plunger on a stout spring. Lose the plunger and you’re out the game. Luckily these parts are available from Brownells in the factory parts section. If you’ve watched my video on Mini bolts I showed you how small they were and the difficulty in disassembling and reassembling the bolt. I’ve lost more than one and I do it for a living. Try doing it under stress or in the field. Get the parts and keep them with your spare parts cache.
So to sum up the most common causes of firing pin breakage:
1. Non-domestic, non-commercial ammunition.
2. Extra power hammer springs.
3. Excessive dry firing, which admittedly is hard to quantify, but allows the pin to protrude without a primer to cushion the stop.
4. Quality control. Simply put, bad parts get out. They may be stressed or otherwise susceptible to breakage soon out of the box. There will always be bad parts in mass production due to tolerances and random sampling.
5. Obstructed bolts. I didn’t touch on this, but you’d be amazed at the amount of crap inside the bolt. Old oils, brass shavings, dirt, rust – all contribute to impeding the firing pin’s travel resulting in flexing which we’ve already decided is bad. It also acts like a grinding stone every time the retention slot in the pin rubs the extractor tail thinning out an already weak spot even more. Clean your bolt every year or so depending on use and definitely on out of the box guns.
http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/ruger-mini-14-mini-30/79881-firing-pins-long-post.html
#1bcshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- North Of The DMZ (US border)
Ruger won't sell you one
Numich will
You are here:
Home > Manufacturers > Ruger > Rifles > Mini-30 (*)
291460 Firing Pin, Replacement, Blue $31.65
lol
Numich will
You are here:
Home > Manufacturers > Ruger > Rifles > Mini-30 (*)
291460 Firing Pin, Replacement, Blue $31.65
lol
Ruger won't sell you one
Numich will
You are here:
Home > Manufacturers > Ruger > Rifles > Mini-30 (*)
291460 Firing Pin, Replacement, Blue $31.65
lol
Yeah, I actually have been there. I don't think we are going to agree on this one and that's ok- to each their own. I am not saying you can't get a firing pin and parts. I am saying for the average guy this isn't going to be fun. The ordering, the waiting, not using your rifle for awhile and then, at the risk of beating a dead horse, there is this from my last post:
To add to the paranoia as I teased with earlier, how prepared are you to change a pin? I never hear anyone wanting to stock up on emergency pins mention the extractor plunger and spring. Remember, the extractor retains the firing pin. The extractor is retained by a tiny little plunger on a stout spring. Lose the plunger and you’re out the game. Luckily these parts are available from Brownells in the factory parts section. If you’ve watched my video on Mini bolts I showed you how small they were and the difficulty in disassembling and reassembling the bolt. I’ve lost more than one and I do it for a living. Try doing it under stress or in the field. Get the parts and keep them with your spare parts cache.
All this so you can shoot some old, corrosive surplus ammo? For me it's just not worth it. And that is what the OP asked about.
#1bcshooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- North Of The DMZ (US border)
Mini 30's have been around for many yrs in Canada so has surplus 7.62X39
I've yet to see or hear of a broken firing pin .
I've had mine for over 13 yrs & shot lots .
But if you don't like cleaning your guns or only shoot a box or two a year commercial ammo is the way to go
I've yet to see or hear of a broken firing pin .
I've had mine for over 13 yrs & shot lots .
But if you don't like cleaning your guns or only shoot a box or two a year commercial ammo is the way to go
Like I said before I have to stand by the proof before me. That is the many countless rounds of surplus ammo through my mini 30 with Wolff hammer springs..... no broken firing pins and no FTF. For most of my other Ruger firearms pistols and rifles I have ordered parts from Snapshots in Quebec, with is a Ruger authorized warranty repair depot. Parts to my door have not taken more than 2 weeks.
One thing to consider is corrosion underneath/in the gas block area from corrosive ammo use. You can't get into this area to clean it.
I saw a magazine article where a guy forced this part off when getting his mini 30 overhauled. All the rust wasn't a pretty sight.
I saw a magazine article where a guy forced this part off when getting his mini 30 overhauled. All the rust wasn't a pretty sight.
If you treat your mini 30 like a SKS after shooting surplus ammo you will not have a problem. Flush all metal components with hot water and dry. Then clean with a good chemical cleaner, like CLP. Once again, hate to sound like a broken record, many rounds down the pipe and never a problem.
You can do that however it is possible you could damage the firing pin. This, apparently, has happened in some mini 30's. Getting another firing pin from Ruger can be an issue so I am told. I am not speaking from personal experience as I shoot reloads only in my mini 30 but have been told by others and have read it on other forums that Ruger doesn't like it if you change their trigger assembly in any way. You might want to research it a bit more.
Any chance, Rugerman that you could pm or post some of those reload stats for your mini? I've searched around with google, but haven't had much luck finding people that reload their 7.62x39 for their mini.
I have heard about firing pin breaks/bends while using surplus, but I've ran quite a few rounds through mine and never had a problem, aside from the constant cleaning, that gas block is a pain in *** to do.
I love mine, but I'm thinking (maybe) of a sell to fund another firearm purchase
Before i ever saw a SKS i bought a Mini-30 paid a 1000.00 in 2000 i could shoot 5 to 6 inchs at 100 metres with winchester or UMC. With surplus it would shoot 8 to 10 inchs all the time. I was told that the Ruger had a 308 bore and it was the reason why it did not shoot surplus well... Anyway sold the Ruger and got 3 SKS... Problem solved. JP
