A Discussion on Space Gun issue in Service Rifle Matches

What do you shoot? What is Longshot shooting?

Hell, is anyone keeping track? Maybe it would be worth it to have shooters self declare their rifle specs on the entry form for this year, just to see. Although I bet some would underestimate the cost of their rifle; I would be pretty embarrassed to end up bottom third with a $6000 rifle/optic combo.

I try to shoot my C7A1, rack number 26 (same rifle I have been shooting and taking on exercises since I joined in 96) because it comes with ammo.

When I am on my own dime I shoot a stock Stag 4R ($1500) topped with an Ebay Elcan($100) that I had rebuilt.
 
Yes, space-gun (whatever they are) can give you a slight advantage...

Assuming
- You can keep ALL shots on score
- You know your elevations
- You know you windage
- You can read the wind

One thing I like about SR, is that it is still a shooters game.
If some shooters wants to play it with nifty guns, that's fine with me.
 
Keith makes some excellent points but I do not really see this as being a serious issue on the mound at the NSCC level. What happens in the various PRA's/clubs out East I can not speak to but IMHO the term "space gun" was just a natural extension of the slagging that soldiers/LEOs and those that recreate or train with them do to each other at every given opportunity.

Some that are either forced to shoot with a junk issue gun (they are not all junk) or scope or a cheap first gun do have some actual sour grapes about competing beside perceived better equipment but these guys just lack the mental game that is so critical in the training regime. Read one of Keith's Mental Marksmanship books and get over it. A good coach or mentor is a huge success multiplier.

Are you sneaking by in a local match with a two pound trigger? Switching different gun/scope combos midstream to game the match conditions? Have a different chronyed match handload for every range? Do you tow a 50 pound wheeled hand cart up to the mound and put up golf umbrellas when it rains? Do you call yourself and your gun a sniper or DM and never passed a stalk or sat in an OP in your life? Whatever, who cares, its a sport have fun but accept that its just got nothing to do with the profession of arms (actual conditions in the service and the guns we use). IMHO "Space gunners" is a attitude toward competition not an equipment class or price point, some people train and some people play. No big deal.
 
Snap!

Am I going to be the only;

a) Fat Guy at the matches this summer (I do pushups and go on the eliptical everytime I walk away from these forums)

and

b) guy shooting a stock-rig?

I just got my brand-new Stag 16" in the mail today, and I'm not inclined to spend any money on it until I've put about 1000 rounds down range.

I don't begrudge guys spending money on their hobby to up their performance, though. Even if they aren't actually upping their performance.

I used to have a fine furniture manufactory (very small), and people would always ask me what tools they should buy. I would tell them not to buy anything until they do some work with what they have. The tools they need would become self-evident as they got practice and grew in skill.

I figure shooting guns is probably pretty much the same.

Thanks for the post, Barney. Very illuminating and encouraging.
 
Alright I guess I have to chime in here.
I would class myself as an elite level shooter as is Keith and a few others here on this board.I've shot against/with Keith, have been coached by him and Linda on the CF Bisley team and respect his skill and him as a person.
I have always professed that its the man behind the gun instead of the gun itself that wins or loses competitons.Training is what has won me 13 provincial service rifle championships and a lot of other gongs at high end competitions all over the world.

HOWEVER,with that said, in my humble opinion, when you reach an elite level in the SR game and are shooting scores in the 550s and above CONSISTANTLY in provicial and national level (read high pressure)competitions and are shooting against other elite level guys doing the same thing, there is something to be said for the "space gun".

Possibly it could be more an ammo and sight issue, in comparison to issue ammo and the old elcan, but I have no testing data in that department.But I do feel that there is an advantage to be had from a 24 inch barrel, a fish gill style muzzle break, handloads and a better sight than the elcan.
Yes I realize that NSCC has different classes and the issue guns have their own class,however I seem to remember that the National Champion is the guy with the highest score at the end of the day,issue gun or otherwise.

Lets look at NSCC 2008 for example. I want to make it clear that I'm not singling out Keith or anyone else.I just want to make a point about the benefits of certain rifle attributes at an elite level.

First off lets look at the matches.
Match 1 is prone as is match 5,6,7,9 10,and 11.Elements of match 12 have prone in them as well.For arguments sake lets say that 2,3,4,8 and half of 12 are not prone and therefore nulify the supposed advatages a space gun might have.
Still,nearly 2/3's of the matches are prone.It does not matter if the rifle weighs 50lbs in these matches as it is rested on the mag.It doesn't matter if its a snap or a rapid.A heavy gun has zero effect on the shooter.As a matter of fact a heavier rifle may benefit the shooter in managing the recoil.

At NSCC 2008 in the 3 deliberate matches that take place at 200, 300 and 500m Keith shot a fantastic 50-9v/50-10v, 50-8v and 50-9v making a total score of 150-27v out of 150-30v possible.Awesome shooting and I enjoyed carrying him off the range.
The closest person shooting a 20 inch issue type rifle with an elcan and standard ammo(another elite level shooter who owns 7 Queen's medals,who is also a multiple time Bisley shooter and well on par to Keith's skill)was able to muster 48-2v, 48-5v and a 49-3v.Still an awesome score by anyones account and totally on par with what can be produced by such a rifle.
Both shooters with equal skill and training.Both using hand loads.One had a 24 inch barrel and efficient muzzle break and the other had a standard 20 inch barrel and an elcan.Did one have a bad day and the other not?
Right there there is a point difference of 5 points and that's only after 3 matches out of 12.Only 5 points you say.What's the big deal?National championships and Queen's Medals are won and lost(I should know) on small points spreads exactly like that.

What I'm saying is that a rifle with certain attributes can give elite level shooters that advantage.When you are shooting 20 or 30 points less than the top guys you probably might not notice it.But when you are within 10 points or less it does make a difference.

I might add that Keiths final V tally after stage 2 that year was 81v.I was the next highest with 59v.He also shot 6 possibles out of 12 in that competition.That means 6 matches he shot a perfect score out of 12 total.That is amazing!Next highest was 2 possibles out of 12.
Did training make a difference that day?Hell yes!But I think there were other factors at play too.
I can go on about other matches and different benefits but I think you might get the idea.
Personally,and this is just my humble opinion,shooting like that isn't possible with ANY 20 inch barrel.National match,government profile or anything else.If it is I've never seen it in all the years I've been competing.Those kinda scores lend themselves to longer barrels with efficient muzzle breaks to manage recoil,better ammo,definately a better sight with more magnification and better glass.

What does all of this mean?It just means that from what I have seen at a high level these attribute CAN make a difference when you are talking about a handfull of points to win.
Will I go out and use one of these in a match?No.Not my thing.I'll stick to being a close second or third with my issue C7 and IVI ammo and the knowledge that when we are talking a handful of points, I'd be right there.
 
I think what Longshot is trying to say is this; If all other things are equal (training, fitness, testicles, etc), the better gun wins.

I think the subtext to this entire thread is; all other things are not usually equal, and the better gun is the smallest factor for performance.
 
All a shooter can buy with a rifle is a handfull of points. The rest are earned through quality training and firing good shots when they count.

From what I have seen at my local range an $1150 remington R15 is enough rifle to win a national title. Can it be a "space gun" and "unsporting" while still being the cheapest North American made AR on the market?
 
Interesting discussion. I would love to throw in an eloquent retort but I have no experience with guns from space.

I never really shot SR to be competitive but only to get very good with the platform I own, a Norinco m14 with that intermediate eye relief scope. I have modified it to work the best it can without the intention of proving to anyone but myself, pragmatically, that it can actually shoot. It just happens that I needed to do my part in order to quantify a reasonable conclusion that my 450$ investment was actually worth it.

This discussion about space gunning has always perplexed me ever since I started shooting SM. I guess I was considered a space guns since my rifle did not fit the mold that defined a standard rifle.

In the end, if matches are a reflection of a the real world of war wherein gaining advantages is the ultimate goal towards victory, one should able to tweak their gun platform in order to "win". I think the conditions though of shooting matches should reflect what really happens in the real world in order to learn and improve, pragmatically, for the benefit of all.

If we have the same constraints that are put forth on a soldier's rifle to be both accurate and reliable in the field of battle, a so called "space gun" or "tweaked rifle" should be able to perform in those conditions too. It is after all called "Service Rifle" competition.

tön45
 
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And therein lies the problem Ton45.The only constraints are on the soldiers who have to shoot their issue gun which has most likely been taken on exercises,abused and had a BFA cranked down on the crown for extended periods of time.
Issue guns cannot be "tweaked".All things said and done those of us who can keep up do quite well with our C7s.Do I care if I win a national championship?While it would be cool coming in third behind two 24 inchers suits me just fine.
There is only one thing I want and it can only be had with a C7 and some excellent training. ;)
 
I shot with some RCR's last summer with their issue rifles and those boys cleaned up. There were some VERY good shooters there. It certainly can be done. Many scores in the mid to high 400's.
 
I shot with some RCR's last summer with their issue rifles and those boys cleaned up. There were some VERY good shooters there. It certainly can be done. Many scores in the mid to high 400's.

You said it... I witnessed those targets down in the butts. They were some 'hard holders' shooting with us! All great intense training. That August match was quite an experience for you civvies! ;)

Somebody in the ORA team said that these guys shot like 'machines'. That's a heck of a compliment!

Cheers,
Barney
 
Longshot,

What you say is very true. Maybe Service Rifle matches should have divisions like IPSC and IDPA. We need a production (C7 or equivalent), an open (tweaked/space-gun), and a macho-man division (7.62s/M14s/AR10s).

The new rules like match 2, the CQB stage, I believe somewhat address the issue of battle field conditions. The guys who normally would rely on the advantages of a strong magnification on their scope had to rethink their set-up. Since a battle is a very fluid affair where ranges are dictated by the fight, and the fight is highy unpredictable, the addition of the short ranges in SR is IMHO very useful. That said, I think that adding a range a step further than 500 meters will complete the usefullness of SR as an operational shooting match.

The accomplishment in winning SR is quite gratifying to one's ego but there is where it ends. IF the interest of the whole is to benefit each and every soldier or operator, I believe that more changes on the match courses. It should really reflect the current realities and future permutations of battle. IMHO, as soon as you're getting too comfortable with one way of shooting you are not evolving . We should have "space guns" run the course in an operational course of fire. Because it is only then will we truly see the benefits and disadvantages of technology and innovation to better our techniques and our equipment in battle. It is in these primordial pools of the shooting community that great progress with firearms have been created. This to me is the "pragmatic" payoff.

ton45
 
There is no real way to disadvantage the space gun shooter in any course of fire I can think of. The rifles issued to the Danes and Dutch are now the free floating C7IUR and I can think of no where that a normal C7 has an edge other than a few ounces while carrying it around.
 
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