non-res 5.56 cal for service rifle... for $1200 or less?

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Redlich

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Hello all,

I'm sure you get similar questions to this frequently, and for that I apologize, but I didn't find a thread that fully answers my question, so here it goes.

I've been practicing field position shooting for a while now, and of all the shooting disciplines I feel that service rifle is the closest to the type of shooting that I would like to do, meaning multiple unsupported positions at varying ranges with time occasionally being a factor. The advice I've been getting from experienced service rifle marksmen is that if you want to play around and have fun while gaining some experience, you can come out and use almost anything, even a bolt gun, but to really participate in a competition properly and effectively a semi automatic rifle shooting a round that can hold 1.5 moa (1.25 is better) out to 500 yards is what you really need to have a chance at staying in the V bull.

I'd like to get a rifle that can do that, so that I can put enough rounds down range to be able to eventually come close to doing that unsupported as well! None of my current firearms are really appropriate for that task.

I want this rifle to fire 5.56/223 for recoil and cost reasons, and I want it to cost $1200 or less. But the kicker is that because I move residences so much and shoot in so many different places (don't ask why please haha) I need it to be non restricted. Maybe someday I'll be able to live in one place and shoot in one place, at which time I might get an AR, but that's not where I am now.

From the research I've done it seems like two rifles MIGHT fit the bill:

-the Ruger Mini-14, or...
-the Czech Small Arms version of the vz858, shooting 5.56 cal

If I got lucky I MIGHT be able to find an AR180b for that cheap... maybe... but the usual price seems to be much higher, as are all the other fancy non res black rifles.

I haven't handled either of these rifles yet, but can anyone comment on which one would be more suitable for the purpose? Specifically I'm not sure if they are capable or not of the accuracy needed for 500 yard service rifle. I will be handloading for this rifle to maximize accuracy in either case.

Also, are there any other rifle options I didn't mention? Your comments are more than welcome!

Thanks,
Red
 
1.5 moa at 500 yards is almost 8 inches across, and that's assuming tuned handloads (with quality components), no wind drift, and zero human error. That's how big the V-bull is, so I'm told. 500 is the distance the matches are going back to around here, starting at 100. Using 62gr or (usually) heavier bullets that may be pushing the performance of many rifles guys are using, but they're still competing with them, including 16 inch barrels and safe chamber pressures... and stock factory AR's that sometimes cost little more than the two rifles I mentioned. One of the things that attracted me to service rifle over something like benchrest or F class is that the onus of performance is much more on the shooter and less on the gear, it's less of an arms race you could say.

Maybe you're right that the rifles I mentioned can't do it, but how many similar rifles have guys seen shooting consistent 3" groups at 100 using cheap russian military surplus (for the 7.62x39 vz) or nato ball ammunition? You'd think those groups would tighten up considerably with consistent load development, just like any rifle. As I said maybe they can't, but I'm sorry, there is no way you need to spend $4800 (4 times my budget) on a 30 inch barreled rifle in order to have a hope of being middle of the pack in service rifle.

If there are better choices out there for less than $2000 please let me know, or if my expectations are totally unreasonable then please explain why so that I can learn what my expectations should be for the performance of these rifles, and the performance that I should expect for a competitive rifle. I'm here to learn, but for that I need to understand.

Thanks,
Red
 
Isn't a requirement for Service Rifle that the firearm is actually in SERVICE with some regular armed forces?

The VZ might qualify (don't know if caliber is in use, or needs to be), but the mini14 wouldn't I don't think. Also, 1.5 moa is probably not possible.

If you dump the non restricted requirement, the choice becomes much more clear. AR.
 
canucklehead said:
Isn't a requirement for Service Rifle that the firearm is actually in SERVICE with some regular armed forces?
Click to expand...

It totally depends on the club running the matches. I know better than to suggest online that "service conditions" should actually reflect conditions faced in the service:rolleyes:. IMHO in Canada there is the DCRA and PRA's and then there is all the other offshoots and oddly enough the oldest organization (DCRA) with the closest historical ties to the military has the most liberal policy about it - any gun, any scope in the open class.

I like Service Rifle because you can compete and succeed based on training, fitness, and experience, not just equipment. I love it when guys kick butt with irons and a WWII gun:). Match ammo, Hubble scopes, and 1.5 MOA "service rifles" has nothing to do with the service but if that's what you like to do, give 'er, it's recreation not life and death. Just come out with the best you can afford and train as much as you can, its still fun.
 
Thanks for the response Diamond, my club is DCRA, but since I'm still new and haven't had any exposure elsewhere I don't know how the rules vary across other clubs. You mention that guys can kick butt with irons and a ww2 rifle (which I love the idea of too :) ) which is encouraging.
 
canucklehead said:
Isn't a requirement for Service Rifle that the firearm is actually in SERVICE with some regular armed forces?

The VZ might qualify (don't know if caliber is in use, or needs to be), but the mini14 wouldn't I don't think. Also, 1.5 moa is probably not possible.

If you dump the non restricted , the choice becomes much more clear. AR.
Click to expand...

Mini 14 qualifys for service rifle as part of the army in Burmuda uses it. Would certainly not be my choice of rifle, 1.5 at 500, good luck. CZ also doubt much luck at that distance. To shoot well at that distance a good AR or other top black rifle, $$.
 
That's a bit tough in the price range you've specified, but here's my two picks:

Norinco M305 - Cheap, and with a bit of tuning will hang in there at range. Downside of course is the cost of 308 over 223. For the cost of surplus or even run-of-the-mill factory ammo, you are better off handloading.

Remington Model 7615P Pump Action Patrol Rifle - Yep, a pump, and yep, it will hold it's own on the line....under the right shooter.
 
I wasn't serious about the 4 fold budget or the 30" AR hence the :p but the accuracy your needing won't be found at the price specified. Even with the $2000 budget it won't go a long way. Account for accessories, mags, optic and vest....you will soon see the true cost. I'm running a Norinco M4 and i have a little under $1900 put into just the rifle (optic included), and around $1000 into the rest of my kit.
 
I agree with beltfed, a m305 is the way to go for non restricted. The best thing to do is get out and shoot. shoot everything you can and then shoot somemore! Practice makes you shoot better. To quote DC 13 shoot better suck less! Get out to a match and shoot. You can't train enough and you can't shoot enough. Even no restricted you can go out and compete! Remember it is a game not real life so train accordingly.
 
OP:

Nothing will meet all of your requirements.

The Swiss Arms Classic Green would meet your requirements except for price.

The Mini-14 and CSA would meet the requirements except for Accuracy.

A Colt SP01 Hbar (or other AR15) would likely meet your requirements except for Non-Restricted.

Most people for SR are running AR's for a reason...

If you're willing to spend ~1700, you could pick up a used Ar180b. Mine could hold ~2MOA at 300 w/irons.
 
Thanks for the responses everyone, I was also considering the M305 but was hoping to find something better due to ammunition costs. Even when reloading, 30 cal bullets seem to cost about 50% more than the 224 cal, but hey I guess you can't have everything. The budget I mentioned was just for the rifle, not including modifications, optics, extra magazines or any other gear. The 7615 pump actually looks like a possibility as well. It's not semi-automatic, but it does use 10 round AR magazines and it shoots 223... I didn't know this model existed, I was only familiar with the hunting version that doesn't shoot anything smaller than 243. With those two choices I can choose between a semi auto with 5 round magazines and more expensive ammunition, or cheaper ammunition with 10 round AR magazines in a pump action.

I'll be giving it more thought, thanks!

Red

*Edit* Can anyone comment on how much of a disadvantage a pump action would be at a match? Ranging from a "crippling" disadvantage to "slight annoyance/not ideal". It may be more of an issue in prone maybe, comments welcome!
 
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Redlich - you mention that your club is DCRA. In what part of Canada do you reside? Different SR competitions exist in different parts of the country. In which particular version of service conditions shooting do you plan on competing?
Almost all competitors use an AR type rifle. OK, you don't want restricted. There are some non-restricted rifles that would be competitive, but they aren't $1200 or less.
You can shoot just about anything, and have fun. A M-14 type rifle can certainly be used, and used effectively, although it is harder to use effectively.
The target version of the Mini would be a possibility. The accuracy is certainly better than typical Minis.
I think the learning curve to be effective with the Remington would be a steep one.
Unless you are shooting ORA matches, 10rd. magazines are irrelevent. Actually a disadvantage, because the 5/30 magazine makes a good monopod rest.
 
Redlich said:
Can anyone comment on how much of a disadvantage a pump action would be at a match? Ranging from a "crippling" disadvantage to "slight annoyance/not ideal". It may be more of an issue in prone maybe, comments welcome!
Click to expand...

We had a fellow come out to a CSRA match and use one on matches 1 thru 12.
I remember marking his targets and thinking - Damn, those things work!
I'll see if I can find his scores to confirm, but from what I remember there was no disadvantage I could see from the butts.
 
Redlich, I would think your biggest disadvantage of a pump would be in prone. I would have to agree with Tiriaq, the 30 rd/5 rd pinned mags act as a great monopod. Especially when "huffing and puffing" Once your breathing gets under control the "support" is welcomed. With the small amount of recoil, it is easier to get back on target, and keep your eye on the target. I would think that by using the pump in prone, you would shift your positioning unintentionally, which would most likely throw off your groupings.

I have not been to a service match in quite some time, so I am not sure on the timings. So it may not be a hindrance as much as I think. I remember running my a#% off, and thinking I was going to die in several rundowns. But back then it seemed like the quicker you could sprint to the next firing line, the quicker you could get set, and get your breathing under control. At least that was my theory back then. I do not think the timings are as short now as they were then.

When I was doing "rundowns" aka service while in the CF, it was back in the days of the c-7 w/iron sights. Mind you there was 2 types of front sights you could get for it back then. Most c-7's had the chunky square front sights, which you could definately not obtain sub 2 MOA (at 300yds)at all with. Or if you had the pin sight for it, sub 2 MOA (at 300 yds) was easily obtainable. At least it was for me, however, I was a marksman (not trying to toot my own horn, just stating for optics purposes) So a weapon with good iron sights can achieve good results. In fact, I will most likely be trying this with a Lee Enfield no.1 mk 3 I am restoring. Not that I am expecting great results, but should be fun anyways.
 
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