How to tell pressure with out a table?

[freddyfour]

So I started loading for Rossi M92 45Colt today, 250gr cast starting with 7gr of 231. Now the chart I am using says 7.1gr of 231 is max at 13900cup, but as I have been reading these actions can take up to 50000cup. So how do I chart my pressures after I go above the 7.1gr of powder so I don't go to far?

 

[sunray]

"...after I go above the 7.1gr of powder..." Over max is too far. You can't guess pressures. .45 Colt rifles are designed to be safe at SAAMI pressures.
There are some cast .45 Colt Rifle loads on Reloader's Nest. None using 231 though. Most of 'em are for M92's, as well. Reduce by 10% and work up.

 

[Al-Sway]

You cannot. You would only be guessing.
If you want more velocity, you need to go to a slower powder.

 

[brnolvr]

The problem with going higher in pressure is the 45 colt case will be blown apart far before you reach 50000cup.

If you need more power use a bigger gun, Thats what 454 casull, 450 marlin, 45-70 are for.

 

[freddyfour]

"...after I go above the 7.1gr of powder..." Over max is too far. You can't guess pressures. .45 Colt rifles are designed to be safe at SAAMI pressures.
There are some cast .45 Colt Rifle loads on Reloader's Nest. None using 231 though. Most of 'em are for M92's, as well. Reduce by 10% and work up.

h ttp://www.gunblast.com/Paco_Legacy_454.htm

Check this out, I am only using 231 for now because thats what I have at this moment.

 

[H4831]

More than the case will be blown up! The cylinder will be blown, also.
I've said it on here before, but can't say it too much.
It is extremely hazardous to "work up loads, watching for pressure," with a revolver. There is very little safety factor beween a load that works fine, and the next one that may blow up the gun.
A bolt action rifle has a large safety factor, but a revolver does not.
Also, with a revolver you are working with fast powder, which is far more critical than slow powder used in bottle neck rifle cases.
Just load your revolver to what a good reloading book says is a safe load.

 

[freddyfour]

Loading for a revolver an none issue, the Rossi M92 is a rifle, and from what I have read can take 50000cup. I am starting at 13000cup and moving up from there. But I have no intention of hitting 50000cup, I'm just curious if there is a way to know pressure after I go above the book?

More than the case will be blown up! The cylinder will be blown, also.
I've said it on here before, but can't say it too much.
It is extremely hazardous to "work up loads, watching for pressure," with a revolver. There is very little safety factor beween a load that works fine, and the next one that may blow up the gun.
A bolt action rifle has a large safety factor, but a revolver does not.
Also, with a revolver you are working with fast powder, which is far more critical than slow powder used in bottle neck rifle cases.
Just load your revolver to what a good reloading book says is a safe load.

 

[ykkid]

There are consumer market pressure gauges you can buy, and affix to your rifle's action, and if you keep really good records, you will eventaully be able to inform this board what the last safe pressure/load combination was before she blew! Leave ballistics experimentation to the labs.

 

[acrashb]

I'm just curious if there is a way to know pressure after I go above the book?

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm

 

[Boomer]

Loading for a revolver an none issue, the Rossi M92 is a rifle, and from what I have read can take 50000cup. I am starting at 13000cup and moving up from there. But I have no intention of hitting 50000cup, I'm just curious if there is a way to know pressure after I go above the book?

If you work up slowly until your observe sticky extraction, you are at the limit of what your cartridge case can handle. IMHO you should back off a full grain and consider that to be your maximum working load with that particular combination of components.

I have seen data in atleast one published manual that could get you in trouble by just immediately going to the maximum load and shooting it. That was the 2002 edition of the Hodgdon annual magazine which suggested 22 grs of H-110 with a 325 gr bullet in the .44 magnum.

 

[freddyfour]

If you work up slowly until your observe sticky extraction, you are at the limit of what your cartridge case can handle. IMHO you should back off a full grain and consider that to be your maximum working load with that particular combination of components.

I have seen data in atleast one published manual that could get you in trouble by just immediately going to the maximum load and shooting it. That was the 2002 edition of the Hodgdon annual magazine which suggested 22 grs of H-110 with a 325 gr bullet in the .44 magnum.

The Hodgdon web site has some interesting data there. If you look at the 45 Colt (Ruger, Freedom Arms & T/C only) data there loads are a lot warmer starting around 20000cup and going up to 30000cup then the 45colt loads which most seem to max out around 15000cup. So obviously the 45colt brass can take more pressure then some people like to think.

Reading one of the gunblast articles they say that you can use the heavier load chart for loading the Rossi M92.

 

[t-star]

i had a whole diatribe written on this, but simeone has his mind made up anyway- when's the funeral?

 

[jethunter]

So I started loading for Rossi M92 45Colt today, 250gr cast starting with 7gr of 231. Now the chart I am using says 7.1gr of 231 is max at 13900cup, but as I have been reading these actions can take up to 50000cup. So how do I chart my pressures after I go above the 7.1gr of powder so I don't go to far?

You can use internal ballistics programs like Quickload to estimate pressures. Note "estimate" is just that, the results are subject to the variables in your situation.

I wouldn't try to increase loads past the published max using 231 because the pressure will start to spike very quickly with small increases in charge weight. You really need a slower powder. I think you are wasting your time with 231.

A2400 powder works very well with the larger capacity pistol cartridges in rifle and carbine length barrels.

 

[jethunter]

More than the case will be blown up! The cylinder will be blown, also.
I've said it on here before, but can't say it too much.
It is extremely hazardous to "work up loads, watching for pressure," with a revolver. There is very little safety factor beween a load that works fine, and the next one that may blow up the gun.
A bolt action rifle has a large safety factor, but a revolver does not.
Also, with a revolver you are working with fast powder, which is far more critical than slow powder used in bottle neck rifle cases.
Just load your revolver to what a good reloading book says is a safe load.

It's one of those rare Rossi M92 revolvers.

 

[freddyfour]

i had a whole diatribe written on this, but simeone has his mind made up anyway- when's the funeral?

No need to be an a$$, if you have something useful and intelligent to add to the conversation then by all means.

What exactly is the issue. If using strong brass like Starline and using an action that is built for high pressures(same actions is also chambered in 454casull and 44mag) why could I not load slightly higher, say up to 44mag pressure.

 

[freddyfour]

You can use internal ballistics programs like Quickload to estimate pressures. Note "estimate" is just that, the results are subject to the variables in your situation.

I wouldn't try to increase loads past the published max using 231 because the pressure will start to spike very quickly with small increases in charge weight. You really need a slower powder. I think you are wasting your time with 231.

A2400 powder works very well with the larger capacity pistol cartridges in rifle and carbine length barrels.

I agree with the 231 not being a very good choice. All the rounds made with that so far are within the max limits. I am trying to find some 2400, unique and some H110. Not a lot of shops close to me that keep a lot of powders, probably have to take a drive up to Waterloo.

 

[legi0n]

No need to be an a$$, if you have something useful and intelligent to add to the conversation then by all means.

What exactly is the issue. If using strong brass like Starline and using an action that is built for high pressures(same actions is also chambered in 454casull and 44mag) why could I not load slightly higher, say up to 44mag pressure.

Freddy, brass strength is of no consequence at shooting pressures. If the action can take it safely, you're fine. Otherwise...

Back to your question, with a good micrometer (not calipers!) you can measure the brass head diameter before and after shooting. Based on the size difference you can infer the pressure.
Google it.

 

[saskgunowner101]

Everytime one of these types of questions pops up I have to go check in my reloading manuals. In the Lymann Cast Bullet Handbook it shows regular loads and higher pressure loads intended for Ruger and the T/C Contender only.

It's showing 6.5 minimum to 7.4 maximum grains of 231 with 250 grain cast boolit for the regular loads for revolvers. Then it shows 7.4 minimum to 10 grains maximum for the Ruger and T/C Contender revolvers.(T/C is not a revolver now that I think of it)

Seeing as you're putting these through a lever action rifle, I'd think the rifle wouldn't grenade itself if you worked up from 7 grains of 231 while watching for pressure signs. Just one guys humble opinion though. Work up your loads slowly, and have fun until you can get a slower powder.

 

[t-star]

No need to be an a$$, if you have something useful and intelligent to add to the conversation then by all means.

What exactly is the issue. If using strong brass like Starline and using an action that is built for high pressures(same actions is also chambered in 454casull and 44mag) why could I not load slightly higher, say up to 44mag pressure.

well,as i see it , there MIGHT be 2 problems- 1) it's a 92 action- that means 44/40 pressures, not 44 special, or magnum- the 44 mag is built on a 94 action, basically, 30/30 pressures

2) i also have that section in my handbook that says "for ruger and t/c cONTENDER pistols only-even then, in comparison to 44 mag loads, they're still somewhat LIGHTER than proper 44 mag loads- these guys are using pressure guns and virgin brass, and they're far more experienced than your average reloader- even then it says in BOLD PRINT TO WORK YOUR WAY UP WITH CAUTION
i can also tell you from experience that when you get up to 10 grains with 231 in a 44 mag( the top end is 11) that it acts funny in terms of pressure some loads will print high and some low- the ones that print high also have a more commanding booom as those with a lower poi- i'm surmising those are higher pressure which won't damage a REDHAWK

 

[freddyfour]

well,as i see it , there MIGHT be 2 problems- 1) it's a 92 action- that means 44/40 pressures, not 44 special, or magnum- the 44 mag is built on a 94 action, basically, 30/30 pressures

2) i also have that section in my handbook that says "for ruger and t/c cONTENDER pistols only-even then, in comparison to 44 mag loads, they're still somewhat LIGHTER than proper 44 mag loads- these guys are using pressure guns and virgin brass, and they're far more experienced than your average reloader- even then it says in BOLD PRINT TO WORK YOUR WAY UP WITH CAUTION
i can also tell you from experience that when you get up to 10 grains with 231 in a 44 mag( the top end is 11) that it acts funny in terms of pressure some loads will print high and some low- the ones that print high also have a more commanding booom as those with a lower poi- i'm surmising those are higher pressure which won't damage a REDHAWK

But as I have stated this very same action (Rossi M92 an modern action) is made for 44mag and the higher pressured 454casull.

I also wont be working to much with 231, just till i can get a hold of some slower powders. My original question was more general then just using 231.