Accuracy

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coldblood

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If to take the shooter error off the equation, what factors will affect the handgun accuracy?
What does it mean - "perfectly balanced" handgun?
Can a gun off the box achieve 1" group at 25m or the gunsmith should do some work first on it? Is this a realistic goal - 1" at 25m? What handgun/revolver you have personal experience with that can give you that?
Is there such thing that one platform will always give you better accuracy over the other?

Thank you.
 
If i were to guess i would sat pretty much any modern pistol could do this locked into a ransom rest. I have never shot a pistol that wasn't more accurate than me. The real question would be could you shoot one, and put all your shots into 1" at 25m. I know my pistol can, only problem is i can't.
 
Mnay magazine articles that I read have their tests do9ne at 25 meters from a ransom rest, but very few reach 1" at 25 yards. That is not to say that some of the higher end guns (Sig X5 or 210, S&W Performance cneter revolvers, custom 1911's) would not acheive this, but I do not think an off the shelf Glock or M&P would be capable of that.
 
There are two problems. The first is getting the centerfire handgun to shoot better than 10MOA without loosing functional reliability, the second is shooting up to the 10 MOA accuracy potential of the handgun before worrying about turning it into a 5 MOA gun.

What is the gun for? How big is your target? How far away? Under what time constraints are you shooting? Given these questions, is your search for accuracy realistic?

If you are searching for accuracy for its own sake, a pistol built on a bolt action or a Contender type action will shoot 1 MOA all day long.
 
coldblood said:
If to take the shooter error off the equation, what factors will affect the handgun accuracy?

- Barrel Lockup(fixed barrels are obviously more accurate)
- Chamber, and barrel dimensions(tighter obviously being better)
- Trigger plays a big role here. Light and crisp just like a rifle
- Sights, and sight radius help to

What does it mean - "perfectly balanced" handgun?

- Refers to a gun that does not tend to induce compensation from the shooter. If it is heavy in the front the shooter has to tilt the gun back, and vice versa. If the gun is perfectly balanced it should be like an extension of your arm, not heavy in the front or back, but pointing naturally in your hand.

Can a gun off the box achieve 1" group at 25m or the gunsmith should do some work first on it? Is this a realistic goal - 1" at 25m?

Typically revolvers are known for their accuracy, which can be attributed to the lack of moving barrel parts I believe, and many can achieve the groups you speak of. Similarly many match pistols will do the same. As far as other guns are concerned their is a huge assortment of types of guns. Out of the box nowadays really means nothing, as their are many custom shop guns from many manufacturers. Will a combat type gun get the same results?Probably not!

Just like a rifle the tight spec of the barrel, and the trigger along with handloads that are worked up specifically with that gun, are the 3 most basic steps in achieving such accuracy. Take a look at some custom PPC revolvers, or bullseye guns.

The problem is finding a balance between accuracy and reliability, as has been mentioned. A tight chamber may not feed 100 percent, and a light trigger is no good for carry, or duty type guns.

What handgun/revolver you have personal experience with that can give you that?

Ruger Redhawk - .44 magnum

Is there such thing that one platform will always give you better accuracy over the other?

Out of the box, typically a revolver with a nice trigger will do this. At least n my experience.

Thank you.
Click to expand...

Your welcome.
 
Thank you guys so much for your comments.

I bottled up those questions for a while already but was unsure to ask in order to not offend anybody in person (at the range).

I heard so many times people say about a handgun pattern - "this is typical "model-name-here" group" or "this is how balanced revolver will pattern" or "you cannot group tight with this model/platform." So, if there is a known consensus regarding typical model-patterns relationship, I thought that I just picked up the wrong gun for me and need to do more research to find out which model/platform "typically" will give me best accuracy. I also wanted to confirm how realistic my goals are. For me, at this stage, it's for accuracy sake. I am not competing and I don't carry at work. But it pisses me off if my spread is too wide. I tried to shoot from the bench rest and I asked other people who seemed more experienced to shoot my gun. I know now for sure - it's not my error. Gunsmith didn't find anything wrong with the gun either. He just said the phrase I mentioned above: "It's your typical "model-name-here" pattern."

I understand (may be I am wrong, tho) that in real world the accuracy of the handgun will be good enough if you could hit a body mass to stop the BG. However, I would assume that for those who shoot for competition, you would expect nice tight groups. But even when observing competitors at the range, I didn't see many shooters that when retrieving their targets could show tight groups. The tightest group I saw was about 5" at 25m. He was shooting customized CZ. However, everybody around will say: "wow, that's nice shooting, man".

So, I just try to understand where I am wrong. In my goals/expectations or in the gun model/pattern.

Your comments definitely helped - some comments are actually an eye opener.

ps. I do think that my trigger sucks, lol.
 
I have a completely stock M&P40 and with various ammunition, it will not shoot 1" at 20 yards, not even close. I doubt they set out to have it shoot to that degree of accuracy, and for its intended purpose it doesn't need to.

All the Smith and Wesson revolvers I've owned shoot far better than it. I haven't shot them from a rest (unlike the M&P40), but some might shoot close to that goal of 1".

A bone stock Colt MarkIV Series 80 I had shot quite tight groups, but not quite as tight as the revolvers.

So to sum it up, the revolvers shoot better than I can hold them, and the M&P40 shoots far worse, brand name means nothing, and auto vs revolver isn't necessarily the deciding factor.
 
Much of your concern will be based on what size of groups you're shooting now. If you're managing to shoot 10 to 12 inch size groups at 25yds then the difference between guns that are capable of 1 inch groups instead of 2 inch groups won't matter much at all since at best you'd see a 1" reduction in group diameter. If you're an Olympic class target shooter that is already able to get 3 inch groups then a better gun would make a significant difference.

Some guns do seem to work better with some shooters. I know that for some reason I really can't shoot Sigs well unless I really concentrate. But there was this bull barrel 1911 someone handed me for two magazines that made me look like a pro marksman. I couldn't believe that I could shoot an unknown gun so well as that one. But on the whole for me it's my revolvers that seem to "fit" me in various ways from balance to grip to some other unknown factors that allow me to shoot consistently tighter groupings than I can with my semi auto handguns.
 
Coldblood, I'm not sure what you are expecting. The biggest variable in shooting any handgun is the "ground-link" aka the human involved. I have a lot of revolvers, 22 match guns (Walther GSP, Unique DES69, FAS602, Marvel Unit 1) and 1911 45s that will all shoot under an inch at 25metres, but until I achieve the stability of the Ransom Rest on its plinth, I'm not going to do much better than to "hold the black" on the standard NRA or ISSF 25m target. Though on occasion I have held it within the 9 ring - 3 inches - standing, one handed. Even shooting off a rest is not going to get you much under that, though I have seen Stan Wills (Canadian champion) shoot at that one inch level you aspire to, in competition.
Dr Jim
 
T&G said:
Coldblood, I'm not sure what you are expecting. The biggest variable in shooting any handgun is the "ground-link" aka the human involved. I have a lot of revolvers, 22 match guns (Walther GSP, Unique DES69, FAS602, Marvel Unit 1) and 1911 45s that will all shoot under an inch at 25metres, but until I achieve the stability of the Ransom Rest on its plinth, I'm not going to do much better than to "hold the black" on the standard NRA or ISSF 25m target. Though on occasion I have held it within the 9 ring - 3 inches - standing, one handed. Even shooting off a rest is not going to get you much under that, though I have seen Stan Wills (Canadian champion) shoot at that one inch level you aspire to, in competition.
Dr Jim
Click to expand...

When you say "hold the black" on standard target - what are the black dimensions and what are the target dimensions that you are referring to?

The targets I shoot right now have 2-3/4" black. I shoot commercial 9mm 124gr ammo (same brand all the time).

As for my expectations, well, crazy me, but I expect perfection in everything I do. :redface: My handgun shooting supposed to be my winter-shooting-indoors-waiting-for-the-shotgun/rifle-season activity, for fun and stress relief. At some point, I realized that I am getting more and more involved in where actually those rounds I send down the range are end up. It's not "clearing the head" activity for me anymore. I want one big hole at "10" at 25. So, all I want to know at this point is how to achieve this "hold the black" center consistently and if my gun is capable to do so taking "ground-link" (me) out off the equation. Another very important fact to add is that I shoot a bone stock gun off the box and would prefer to keep it that way (well, may be will consider to do a trigger job on it in the future).
 
coldblood said:
If to take the shooter error off the equation, what factors will affect the handgun accuracy?
What does it mean - "perfectly balanced" handgun?
Can a gun off the box achieve 1" group at 25m or the gunsmith should do some work first on it? Is this a realistic goal - 1" at 25m? What handgun/revolver you have personal experience with that can give you that?
Is there such thing that one platform will always give you better accuracy over the other?

Thank you.
Click to expand...

1. Weight/length/smoothness of the trigger pull
2. Ergonomics/balance
3. Inherent mechanical accuracy of the pistol

In that order.
 
What groups are you obtaining offhand at 25 yards?
Distance center to center of the shots farthest appart.

What gun are you shooting?

I always wish for all of my shots to form one small hole in the center of the target.
That seldom happens at 25 yards, even with my wrists rested on sandbags, although I do own several handguns that are capable of 1" or better at that range.


coldblood said:
When you say "hold the black" on standard target - what are the black dimensions and what are the target dimensions that you are referring to?

The targets I shoot right now have 2-3/4" black. I shoot commercial 9mm 124gr ammo (same brand all the time).

As for my expectations, well, crazy me, but I expect perfection in everything I do. :redface: My handgun shooting supposed to be my winter-shooting-indoors-waiting-for-the-shotgun/rifle-season activity, for fun and stress relief. At some point, I realized that I am getting more and more involved in where actually those rounds I send down the range are end up. It's not "clearing the head" activity for me anymore. I want one big hole at "10" at 25. So, all I want to know at this point is how to achieve this "hold the black" center consistently and if my gun is capable to do so taking "ground-link" (me) out off the equation. Another very important fact to add is that I shoot a bone stock gun off the box and would prefer to keep it that way (well, may be will consider to do a trigger job on it in the future).
Click to expand...
 
Some pistols are capable of MOA at 100 yards... the problem is virtually no shooter can do that. Generally, most pistols will shoot better than you can shoot them. It's not really a realistic goal to be able to shoot 1" at 25 yards... it takes an extremely good shooter to be able to do that.
 
Ar180shooter said:
Some pistols are capable of MOA at 100 yards... the problem is virtually no shooter can do that. Generally, most pistols will shoot better than you can shoot them. It's not really a realistic goal to be able to shoot 1" at 25 yards... it takes an extremely good shooter to be able to do that.
Click to expand...
MOA at 100 yards? I seriously doubt it. Even high end bullseye-grade guns like Sig P210 and Les Baer do worse than MOA at 50 yards (let alone 100 yards).
 
Halger280HVMag said:
What groups are you obtaining offhand at 25 yards?
Distance center to center of the shots farthest appart.

What gun are you shooting?

I always wish for all of my shots to form one small hole in the center of the target.
That seldom happens at 25 yards, even with my wrists rested on sandbags, although I do own several handguns that are capable of 1" or better at that range.
Click to expand...

The best group I've got was 7" with my stock G17. :redface:
 
Well, the G17 is a service/combat pistol, I've never seen a Glock used for Bullseye competition.

The G17 is fine for the purpose for which it is intended.

7" at 25 yards offhand is not terrible, although the size of the groups can probably improve with practice.
What groups were you shooting when you first got the pistol?

Try shooting your pistol, holding with both hands and your wrists supported by sandbags.
This might give you a better idea of your pistols capabilities.
As well as your own.;)

All the best.

coldblood said:
The best group I've got was 7" with my stock G17. :redface:
Click to expand...
 
I got a couple of questions. What does MOA mean? Also, is one caliber round more accurate then another? I have two Glocks, a 9mm and .45. I find im way more accurate with the .45, why is that? Its got more recoil, does the round have anything to do with it? You know faster round more accurate or less depending???
 
I too will add one more question. May be silly but I have to ask. It seems that when I speed-shooting (1 sec b/w rounds) I do tighter groups than if I concentrate on each shot. Any thoughts?
 
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