As others have stated, there are purpose built match guns that can achieve one inch groups at 25 meters, but as for standard revolvers and semi-autos, I would say it would be extremely rare to find one capable of this. A two inch group off bags would be a good one, in my opinion. And as for shooting off bags or ransome rests, other than working up loads, why would you? Standing, unsupported, a three inch group is doing very well, for the average shooter.
Accuracy
- Thread starter coldblood
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saskgunowner101
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- near Prince Albert
Just remember to have fun shooting and stop being so hard on yourself.
As for the better groups with faster shooting, is it possible that your shoulder muscles get fatigued when shooting slow and deliberate?? Just a thought.
Is it possible to shoot closer than 25 meters at your range?? I find it easier to self diagnose what I might be doing wrong or what works better at a closer range.
As for the better groups with faster shooting, is it possible that your shoulder muscles get fatigued when shooting slow and deliberate?? Just a thought.Is it possible to shoot closer than 25 meters at your range?? I find it easier to self diagnose what I might be doing wrong or what works better at a closer range.
Seven inches at four months is good progress; you will start hitting the black consistently very soon.
I started into handgun shooting thirty years ago (quit after less than a year to travel around Australia). Six months after I began, a club member whom I had never before met came in with a very fancy target pistol, a Russian Vostok .22 short. When I went over to admire it, he insisted I fire off a magazine. I put ten in the black for the first time ever and went out into the club area praising the virtues of this pistol. Then, when I returned to the range some time later, I found the pistol's owner crouched down on the bench trying madly to get his shots on target. Practice is everything -- he had not shot for two years and I had been out every Friday night for six months.
Well, practice is almost everything -- last year I took my nephew to the range. He had fired a rifle once but never a handgun. When I handed him my .22 Browning, he started firing two inch groups at five yards, duplicated the feat at ten yards, and was not far off at fifteen yards when we ran out of ammo!
And I can't get him back to the range!
At the other extreme, the worst pistol I have ever seen was a .25 Beretta (I don't remember the model; a tiny thing with a one inch flip-up barrel that was meant to be concealed somewhere where nobody would search
)). The guys who brought it in taped together a six foot by six foot square so they could find out where the bullets went. We all agreed that the only safe location was directly in front of them.
I started into handgun shooting thirty years ago (quit after less than a year to travel around Australia). Six months after I began, a club member whom I had never before met came in with a very fancy target pistol, a Russian Vostok .22 short. When I went over to admire it, he insisted I fire off a magazine. I put ten in the black for the first time ever
and went out into the club area praising the virtues of this pistol. Then, when I returned to the range some time later, I found the pistol's owner crouched down on the bench trying madly to get his shots on target. Practice is everything -- he had not shot for two years and I had been out every Friday night for six months. Well, practice is almost everything -- last year I took my nephew to the range. He had fired a rifle once but never a handgun. When I handed him my .22 Browning, he started firing two inch groups at five yards, duplicated the feat at ten yards, and was not far off at fifteen yards when we ran out of ammo!
And I can't get him back to the range!
At the other extreme, the worst pistol I have ever seen was a .25 Beretta (I don't remember the model; a tiny thing with a one inch flip-up barrel that was meant to be concealed somewhere where nobody would search
)). The guys who brought it in taped together a six foot by six foot square so they could find out where the bullets went. We all agreed that the only safe location was directly in front of them.Just remember to have fun shooting and stop being so hard on yourself.
Is it possible to shoot closer than 25 meters at your range?? I find it easier to self diagnose what I might be doing wrong or what works better at a closer range.
That's the fate of a perfectionist. Even fun has to be the hard way, lol.
I can shoot anywhere between 0m to 25m at my range. I think you are right about the speed-shooting. Makes sense. I think it can be an easy fix. Just need to do more push-ups in the morning.
You probably know what MOA is you just aren't familliar with the shorthand. "Minute Of Angle" refers to 1/60th of one degree, which works out very close to 1 inch at 100 yards (it's actually 1.047 inches at 100 yards), or any other linear expression thereof. It relavence to firearms is to express accuracy, generally with rifles 1 MOA is accepted as accurate.
Thanks, had no clue. Now what about the ammo questions?
- Location
- London, Ontario
Personally I have seen alot of M&P9s out shoot M&P40s
That is a much more difficult question to answer. It would seem that some cartridges are inherintly more accurate than others, but it has as much to do with the actual cartridge itself as it does the firearm in question. Nearly everything plays a factor, whether small or large.
In all likelyhood, there is a simple answer in your case as to why you shoot .45 better than the 9mm, but I don't know what it is.
In my case I shoot my .44mag considerably more accuratly than my .357mag. I attribute most of that to the longer sight radius of the .44. I'm still a lousy shot though!
Most factory ammo is pretty decent. I'd say it's more a case of one bullet weight and shape perhaps not biting into the rifling the best. For example I found that for my own 9mm shooting that my CZ consistently does slightly tighter groups when shooting round nose 125gn lead rounds instead of my usual 125gn jacketed. It's not a big difference but I shot enough of it to see the groups go from about 3 inches at 15'ish yards down to around 2.5 inches with a tighter concentration around the middle than on the jacketed rounds.
Coldblooded, you'r 7 inch groups at 25 isn't shabby at all. As you're finding out shooting a handgun well is not that easy. First there's the need to mentally separate your mind from the recoil that you know is coming. Then there's the need to achieve a stable and consistent hand grip and trigger pull where you only move the trigger finger and do it the same way each time. On top of this if you have old guy vision and old guy nerves like the more "mature" shooters such as myself just seeing the darn target at 25 yards is a feat to smile about.
I wouldn't call one round a second "rapid firing" either. It's not Olympic slow and deliberate but there's pleanty of time at one a second to get your sights aligned in fine style. And if they are set then there's no point in waiting and letting your arms get wobbly.
Coldblooded, you'r 7 inch groups at 25 isn't shabby at all. As you're finding out shooting a handgun well is not that easy. First there's the need to mentally separate your mind from the recoil that you know is coming. Then there's the need to achieve a stable and consistent hand grip and trigger pull where you only move the trigger finger and do it the same way each time. On top of this if you have old guy vision and old guy nerves like the more "mature" shooters such as myself just seeing the darn target at 25 yards is a feat to smile about.
I wouldn't call one round a second "rapid firing" either. It's not Olympic slow and deliberate but there's pleanty of time at one a second to get your sights aligned in fine style. And if they are set then there's no point in waiting and letting your arms get wobbly.
I've found 38/357 special revolvers to as accurate/easy to shoot, as any guns on average. You can load the ammo so that there is very little recoil and the single action triggers are usually quite good. Sight radius is normally a little longer too.
My 686 is my most accurate handgun and new shooters tend to get better groups with it than with my autoloaders. I think the ergonomics of the revolvers may make it easier to get hits closer to the guns potential.
My 686 is my most accurate handgun and new shooters tend to get better groups with it than with my autoloaders. I think the ergonomics of the revolvers may make it easier to get hits closer to the guns potential.
MOA is a rifle term and really does not belong in a handgun discussion. As pointed out it is an angle and works well to describe groups from 100yds and out. Inside of that it quickly becomes rediculous. A 1" group at 25yds is 4 MOA, a 2" is 8 MOA and the 7" group described by the op is 28 MOA. MOA is not interchangeable with inches, it only roughly equals 1" at 100yds. It is not just another term for inch.
With pistols generally we just describe groups by inches and say what distance. It's not as ###y or tacticool sounding as MOA but people will know what you are talking about.
With pistols generally we just describe groups by inches and say what distance. It's not as ###y or tacticool sounding as MOA but people will know what you are talking about.
Halger280HVMag
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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- B.C. XMU Local .454
Handgun terms generally use group size and range to describe results.
Although MOA, can still be used to describe the handgun's mechanical accuracy from a machine rest.
Practical accuracy is a combination of gun/ammo matching, as well as shooter capability.
Proficiency=practice, practice, practice.
2 cents Eh!
Although MOA, can still be used to describe the handgun's mechanical accuracy from a machine rest.
Practical accuracy is a combination of gun/ammo matching, as well as shooter capability.
Proficiency=practice, practice, practice.
2 cents Eh!
You can still use it but I find people get confused when they try to, as they think MOA = 1 inch at all distances, rifle shooters tend to know better but pistol shooters don't. So when people try to say 1 MOA at 25yds they aren't really claiming 1/4" groups....
As already stated, the single biggest factor in handgun accuracy is the shooter. And the single biggest problem with the shooter is anticipation of the shot. This is usually reflected in some kind of unconscious muscle twitch just as the gun goes off (often accompanied by some kind of jerking of the trigger, just to make sure the twitch coincides with the firing of the gun!). This gives you the flyers we all hate. (Note that anticipation doesn't have to mean you're "afraid" of the gun going off, for those who are too macho to even consider that. It can just mean that your subconscious is trying to prevent the recoil, which is impossible for it to do.)
For some people, the more time they take on a shot, the more they try to make it "perfect" and the more likely they are to "now!" the shot and anticipate it. That's almost certainly what you're doing. When you shoot quickly, you're more accepting of having to press the trigger and having the gun recoil and don't anticipate.
tictactician
Regular
- Location
- Victoria, B.C.
The Zen of shooting
You have touched on an interesting point. Shooting better when faster is a real tell tale sign IMHO. When shooting fast you are shutting off conscious thought and relying on sub concious training. This is why you don't know why you did better. The more you concentrate the more you get in your own way. You start to think "don't screw up" instead of just touching off a good shot. This tells me more practice and good habits are already there. They just need to be refined. Shutting your mind off is difficult. Even more so when you have lots of time to fill on the line. Add in some people watching and it gets worse. It is when you are in the "zone" where all the internal and external distractions melt away.
You have touched on an interesting point. Shooting better when faster is a real tell tale sign IMHO. When shooting fast you are shutting off conscious thought and relying on sub concious training. This is why you don't know why you did better. The more you concentrate the more you get in your own way. You start to think "don't screw up" instead of just touching off a good shot. This tells me more practice and good habits are already there. They just need to be refined. Shutting your mind off is difficult. Even more so when you have lots of time to fill on the line. Add in some people watching and it gets worse. It is when you are in the "zone" where all the internal and external distractions melt away.
The "black" on these targets is the 7 ring outer margin and that is roughly 7 inches across - this is a 25metre distance target.
[/QUOTE]The targets I shoot right now have 2-3/4" black. I shoot commercial 9mm 124gr ammo (same brand all the time). [/QUOTE]
Sounds like the 50 foot indoor target - the 10 is about 6/10 inch across. And of course you are extremely unlikely to get any accuracy out of the 9mm unless you are shooting a SIG p210 or one of the Sams Match M9s built for the USAMTU. Inherent accuracy in the 9mm is not there for 99.99% of commercial 9mm pistols.
[/QUOTE]As for my expectations, well, crazy me, but I expect perfection in everything I do.
My handgun shooting supposed to be my winter-shooting-indoors-waiting-for-the-shotgun/rifle-season activity, for fun and stress relief. At some point, I realized that I am getting more and more involved in where actually those rounds I send down the range are end up. It's not "clearing the head" activity for me anymore. I want one big hole at "10" at 25. [/QUOTE]If you can do that the next question is: "Why aren't you the Olympic Champion? or at least the National Champion?" We all strive for that, but the ONLY person that I have ever seen do this was Dr Darius Young - Three time US National Civilian Pistol Champion. And even he can't do it all the time.
[/QUOTE]So, all I want to know at this point is how to achieve this "hold the black" center consistently and if my gun is capable to do so taking "ground-link" (me) out off the equation. Another very important fact to add is that I shoot a bone stock gun off the box and would prefer to keep it that way (well, may be will consider to do a trigger job on it in the future).[/QUOTE]
Well the best way to achieve that objective would be to acquire a good 22 target pistol - even a Ruger MkII with a trigger job will achieve it, but it is a LOT easier with a European match pistol.
Also practise your Zen - shooting is a "no-mind" operation once you have trained the system.
Cheers Dr Jim
The OP said "I shoot commercial 9mm 124gr ammo (same brand all the time)."
I shoot many different handguns and do a load test for each, using 0.3 gr increments of 4 different powders. It never ceases to amaze me how a gun can shoot so bad with one load and so much better with another. If you do not reload than you should at least try different brands and different weight bullets.
if you only shoot one load you don't really know what you and the gun are capable of. These targets are shot at 20 yards using a two-handed grips, un-rested.
My revlovers will shoot under 2", easily. Semi-autos are around 4". With a Ransom rest I am assuming the fliers would disappear and the groups would shrink at least by half.
I shoot many different handguns and do a load test for each, using 0.3 gr increments of 4 different powders. It never ceases to amaze me how a gun can shoot so bad with one load and so much better with another. If you do not reload than you should at least try different brands and different weight bullets.
if you only shoot one load you don't really know what you and the gun are capable of. These targets are shot at 20 yards using a two-handed grips, un-rested.
My revlovers will shoot under 2", easily. Semi-autos are around 4". With a Ransom rest I am assuming the fliers would disappear and the groups would shrink at least by half.
Ok I don't know how far 25 meters is but I do know how far 40 yards is. Sorry this meter thing just kills me... Here is my Ruger Super Redhawk in 44mag with handloads and cast bullets. Yes that's five shots in that one hole and then one I just didn't aim.
to answer the question (with out reading 5 pages of stuff.... so forgive me if it's covered)
a LOT of other factors will determine if a firearm (handgun) will shoot well or not, even taking out the 'human' factor by putting it in a ransom rest.
Powder charge, velocity (both are closely related)
how the case is prepped
what type of primer is used (mag, regular, benchrest)
the TYPE of powder
how the bullet was loaded
then you get to the gun itself
semiauto, revolver, single shot, all have many different factors that affect accuracy.
If a gun won't shoot 1" at x yards with x ammo, I'd say NO you can't send it back cause it's a bad shooter. You just havn't found what ammo it really likes to shoot well.
Two guns from the same maker same model same everything, most likely will NOT shoot the same ammo with the same accuracy. It's just the way it is.
Sorry this meter thing just kills me... Here is my Ruger Super Redhawk in 44mag with handloads and cast bullets. Yes that's five shots in that one hole and then one I just didn't aim.
to answer the question (with out reading 5 pages of stuff.... so forgive me if it's covered)
a LOT of other factors will determine if a firearm (handgun) will shoot well or not, even taking out the 'human' factor by putting it in a ransom rest.
Powder charge, velocity (both are closely related)
how the case is prepped
what type of primer is used (mag, regular, benchrest)
the TYPE of powder
how the bullet was loaded
then you get to the gun itself
semiauto, revolver, single shot, all have many different factors that affect accuracy.
If a gun won't shoot 1" at x yards with x ammo, I'd say NO you can't send it back cause it's a bad shooter. You just havn't found what ammo it really likes to shoot well.
Two guns from the same maker same model same everything, most likely will NOT shoot the same ammo with the same accuracy. It's just the way it is.
