Want to try this AR15 nonsense...

[easy]

I apologize for getting a bit hot under the collar as no other make has given me as much trouble as DPMS parts kits.

When a product gives me trouble where no other product does, or has, I call it crap and move on. And yes, I will tell everyone about it. People buy DPMS kits because they are cheap. Eventually it will bite you in the ass. You can't have cheap and quality together. It's just bad economics.

I've written DPMS off several years ago, but I regularly have guns with DPMS parts come though my hands. I can't say that present production is any better. They stand out enough for me to know the difference from other makers. I don't think anyone makes gray parts any more.

I'm sold on Armalite lower parts kits. Particularly the ones made for the Marines with the M marked on their hammers. I get them at the Quantico Marine Base in Virginia. They are certainly not $65. More like $110. to me.

These are the catz azz. To some extent (ducking for lightning strike) they smoke out Diemaco/Colt kits.

Not saying DPMS parts don't work. Obviously people use them. However, you are more likely to have issues traced to DPMS substandard quality than any other kit out there. If they work for you, in your guns, that's great, but even you have posted that you have run into out of spec DPMS parts. Can you say the same with any other manufacturer?

Stag Arms are 50 times better kits than DPMS and Walt sells those for $98.

You're right, Brownells does sell DPMS kits for $60. They also sell Colt kits for $190. How can you express Canadian mark-up as a reason for price differences in this case.

 

[Shrapnel]

There are no Mattel receivers.... The pic is a Photoshop job AFAIK...

 

[Claven2]

Where are you getting Colt LPK's for $90? I think you are referring to Brownells product No. 160-311-101 which is not an LPK. It has no trigger, hammer, disconnector, disconnector spring, trigger spring nor hammer spring. Nor does it have hammer or trigger pins. A complete Colt kit is at least $120, probably more like $160.

But like many of their products - Colt prices themselves out of the game. Stag parts are no worse than Colt and are half the price IMHO.

The hammers you are getting a Quantico are probably M16 hammers and can't (legally) be exported from the US commercially any longer. they are nice, but also not obtainable at retail.

I have had parts failure from Armalite too. I've gotten both under and over-diameter pin sets, A bolt stop that was too wide to fit into a lower receiver and a buffer retainer that was mush, burred over in under 50 rounds and no longer retained the buffer.

EVERY manufacturer puts out the odd dog. But of you get a kit made up of good parts that work and function well in your firearm, then it no longer matters what brand was written on the package. The key word is "works" (well).

 

[easy]

Sorry I meant to write $190. I wasn't referring to any particular product number. I'm rhyming numbers from memory. I might be off a few dollars. I was trying to make point about quality versus a cheap product.

You still seem to think that something sold for 60$ is of the same quality as something sold for $190. just because it works, most times. Some people want things to work all the time and there's a price to pay for that.

 

[easy]

... The hammers you are getting a Quantico are probably M16 hammers and can't (legally) be exported from the US commercially any longer. they are nice, but also not obtainable at retail. ...

Actually no they are not M16 groups or hammers. They are AR15 kits. The hammer is not the early style as DPMS uses, it's the Standard hammer with the notch. In fact it's exactly like the Colt Sporter hammer, but .155".

Like I said, I buy them at Quantico and I have no problems getting them legally into Canada.

 

[Claven2]

I see where you are going, but no LPK is worth $190 whether it's Colt or not. Every part Colt makes costs double the price of even a Noveske or LMT part. It's nothing more than hype IMHO - not a case of a better quality product.

Price-wise I just do not agree that the Armalite LPK's are made better, in general, than DPMS LPK's. I furthermore believe the kits are identical wrt springs and pins. If your experience differs then we will have to agree to disagree in a gentlemanly way

 

[BattleRife]

To the OP:
A slick side upper could also be tough to locate, maybe try a WTB in the EE.

He doesn`t need a slickside upper, but it would need to be without the case deflector. That makes it easier, but still not easy.

 

[chofo]

I'll try this agin...$%#^ photoshop!!

 

[chofo]

Ummmmm... okay. Confused now !! WTF is a slabside upper?

( But really...I WANT to learn about actually building one up from parts, something that I built myself. I still prefer our old C1’s, but when we switched to the C7 in 1990 (??) I certainly appreciated the weight and the feel of the little rifle. Strange that the FN became Prohib and the C7 just Restricted…go figure.)

Well, the DPMS stuff came almost immediately from Brownell's as did the collapsible stock, so for my first effort I’ll stick with the parts I've already purchased... I really like the "look" of a Colt or an Armalite receiver, but the Blue Line was a great deal, IMHO. Here’s what I bought new, so far…

Good news is, I found an almost complete "upper" for my little project, and a bunch of other parts he threw in as well. ( Amazing what comes out of the woodpile when you put the word out that you're looking for parts or junk guns.) Anyways, here’s what I got for $75.00 ( he wanted 100 but I told him no way…they’re butt- UGLY… yeah I know, I think I got a deal on them... I think.)

Seem to be “no-name” parts…nothing at all stamped into any of the pieces at all…

Gas tube looks to be burnt... is this safe? Should I change it?

Rusty patches on all the Parkerized stuff… barrel, ejector cover, front and rear sights… a mess… the flash suppressor is 5.5” long and about 7/8” in diameter, 6 grooves.

More worrisome is the rust on the lugs and the chamber! Is this safe? Polish it out? How?

Glad I bought a new stock… this one is finished. Wobbles all over my new receiver, even when tightened up, so I think I’ll toss it. The spring is FUBAR too ( see the other picture) ... and the buffer…worn all to $hit. Must have put a jillion rounds through this one before being “parted out”.

NO idea of the twist… I tried a cleaning rod and a brush… count the turns and all that while pushing it in for a foot… but it doesn’t work… who cares really… not like I change it!
Rifling looks okay, bore brush and WD-40 cleaned her up well. Measures 12.25” from crown ( inside the flash suppressor) to the rear of the chamber ( just in front of the where the lugs lock in.)

At any rate, it looks like I’m getting there (slowly) … all I need is a bolt, all the crap for the bolt, and some handguards.

Anyways… I’ll keep you posted on how things are going…and “Thanks Again” for all the schoolin’ ... I do appreciate it.

 

[mrsmitty]

I say replace the barrel and extension but keep the flash hider if you are looking for that kind of look. I would keep the original stock and find the appropriate buffer tube. My guess is you have the wrong diameter buffer tube. Get a new gas tube as well they are cheap.

 

[Claven2]

1) Cool upper receiver. those are in demand by guys going for the retro look. The parts look like someone had an XM177 clone.

2) The gas tube is just discolored from heat. It will probably work fine. I wouldn't bother changing it unless it leaks gas when you shoot it.

3) The barrel is probably chrome lined. If so, don't bother changing the bbl unless it shoots poorly or you don't like the twist rate. You can check twist rate by using a tightly fitting patch on a rod. Count the number of inches you have to push it in to get one full turn.

4) The stock is correct for an XM177 from what I can see, though you'll need a new buffer tube to use it. It looks like a milspec tube on the old stock and your new one looks commercial, so not compatible.

5) Steel wool and oil will take the rust off the parked bits.

 

[chofo]

Tried Claven's trick... tried 4 times ... and I keep getting 7" for one turn of the rod.

Must be doing something wrong?

I'll also keep looking for a new stock "tube" but is that shi**y looking collapsible stock the correct one for the XM177? ( I kind of like the sling attachment on the new one... but not the slots in it... arrgh!)

 

[mrsmitty]

Tried Claven's trick... tried 4 times ... and I keep getting 7" for one turn of the rod.

Must be doing something wrong?

I'll also keep looking for a new stock "tube" but is that shi**y looking collapsible stock the correct one for the XM177? ( I kind of like the sling attachment on the new one... but not the slots in it... arrgh!)

Yes that is the correct stock get a milspec diameter buffer tube. And I do agree with Claven maybe try and use the barrel, if it is shot out replace it then. Hopefully you can clean up that barrel extension and the rest of the rust. I would still replace the gas tube, they are dirt cheap and I like my guns pretty inside and out.

 

[chofo]

Well, I tried the upper onto the lower, and they seem to fit nice... and these famous and mysterious "holes" all seem to be the same diameter (front and rear) so it should all go together okay. But now...

The upper anodizing is a little beat up and I would pay to get it re-anodized BUT it has a fairly shiney finish to the metal, compared to the new lower... the anodizing is pretty much the same colour as the new lower... but the difference in texture is makes it look really weird. Don't like it! Can't have it!

So, this brings up yet another question... the new lower looks almost bead-blasted then anodized...and the upper looks almost polished, then anodized. How could I get the upper re-finished to match the lower?

Anyone in the Ottawa-Montreal-Kingston area able to do this for me? I couls bead-blast it myself, but have no idea or special tools to get the barrel off the upper. If I got that far, why not get all the steel bits re-parked as well.

Anyways... all info/ideas/recommendations appreciated. And the 1:7 twist ... is that normal?

 

[Claven2]

1:7 is normal for modern AR15's. It's hard to say how old the bbl is - It could be more modern than you might think. Probably someone made an XM177 clone in the last 10 years.

Anodizing of upper receivers isn't a process you can get done at the local gunsmith. Maybe ask Dlask or North Eastern Arms if they can help you out.

 

[easy]

Hang on there cowboy, you may have some Retro Colt parts here. You might like what you bought after all.

The barrel might be from an M16 A2 11.5" Colt Model 733 or 735 Commando. The upper too. Look here to educate yourself further: http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/uppers/ Compare the markings from your upper if any to those in the examples shown on the above website.

The 1:7 barrel twist is what the 733 and 735 11.5" barrels had. The split pin holding the sling swivel in place is indicative of that era too. The gray ejection port door cover on your upper is the old style without the hump in the centre. That is definitely a Retro Colt part. The sight wheel has numbers around it. The number 3 is in a style indicative of early models and era as well. So is the buffer tube lock ring (castle) nut.

There should be some markings on the barrel as well. Look closely. Markings may be very faint. What are the markings on the front sight tower?

Here's some excellent reference to the old guns:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=296919

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=241681

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=401263

Lose the fake moderator and find yourself a conventional A2 flash hider.

I'd keep the barrel, the old retractable stock and upper, find a ribbed set of shorty handguards, a replacement Mil-Spec, two position buffer tube and bolt carrier group and you're done. You'd have yourself a very close clone of the Model 733, or 735 to enjoy while you learn more about AR15s. You already have a new buffer and spring and pretty much everything else you need for a functioning gun.

Start with this following index to learn more about Colt retro and Colt AR15 history and compare the parts you have to those illustrated: http://www.biggerhammer.net/ar15/

That should be enough to keep you busy 'till Christmas. Man, you have a lot of catching up to do mate.

If you don't want that barrel and upper, I will buy it from you. PM me if you wish to sell it. I'm always building.

If you decide to keep it, I will offer to remove your barrel from the upper with the use of correct tools for the job and return it to you for the cost of postage both ways and you can clean it. I can also recondition all those old parts for you for a small fee and reinstall to be operational if you so choose. I'm in Kitchener.

 

[chofo]

Right. Okay.

So... is this how the obsession begins?

My eyes hurt now, and I'm still confused with what I bought... thanks Easy and Claven for the info and the links !! Fascinting !!

And yes I certainly have a lot of catching up to do.

I re-measured barrel ( properly) and it actually is 11.5” ( front of rifling to base of chamber ) like you guys said.


So, from what limited reading I've done...

It seems that my upper is very early M16A1

- no forging codes

- no case deflector

- really early port cover

- sear cutout on bottom part of the upper

- forward assist ( but wrong plunger, round, should be teardrop)

- strange looking "3" on the rear sight

- real early front sight base. ( Forged, no codes, ground off flashing, drain hole, round sigh pin).

I really do NOT like that the front sight is using roll-pins to hold it onto the barrel… should it be pinned? Are the roll-pins okay the way they are? From all appearances, this was a Bubba rifle. A real mixed up mess of old, worn-out parts.

Oh yes, there are absolutely NO markings on the barrel at all… I looked with a magnifying glass everywhere. I don’t even think it’s chrome plated anywhere, inside or out. But then I am a rank amature when it comes to these things.

Not sure I would want to sell the upper… it looks like it would actually be the part that I need to build the XM177 clone.

However... I sure would like a Colt lower now that I’m getting into this… anybody want a brand new Blue Line??

Cash and the Blue Line for a Colt or an Armalite lower!

 

[Claven2]

Unless you get a modern Colt lower, you are unlikely to find a Colt lower wit hthe proper milspec pin holes, so I'd not bother with that.

It's possible the upper you have could even be US military surplus.

The roll pins are fine - leave them be IMHO.

The barrel, if chromed, would not be obvious - it's only the rifled bore that's chromed on a chrome-lined barrel. In all liklihood it IS chromed.

I would carry on with the build, but you need a milspec 2-position receiver extension. If you post a WTB in the EE, someone will likely offer you one for cheap as most modern builders want the 6 position stock and for export control reasons, some of the AR's comming into Canada even now have 2-position extensions on them that guys swap out.

 

[chofo]

Well... found a Colt lower on EE ... $500. A bit much for me, I'm afraid.

Have just ordered a barrel tool, a stock tool and a sight tool from Brownells.... about $50delivered.

I've decided to rip the entire rifle down to bits and pieces, and start from scratch.

I don't like the rust stains and the scratches, the way the upper and lower look completely different. Nothing seems to fit properly, sloppy... it rattles and shakes.
Rear stock is a POS... the new one isn't quite "correct". New pistol grip I bought apparently is for a newer A2 . Front flash supressor is wrong (??? Looks correct on some of the XM177's on Google Images but who knows).

Tracked down a firm in Ottawa that can anodize the black coating onto the upper-lower or whatever I need done. At least the rifle won't look buck-shee.

Think I'll try the Parking myself.. Brownells ( God bless 'em!) has all the ####e, it seems.

I just KNOW I'll have a ton of questions for all you good folk in about a week. LOL!!

And again... thanks!

 

[easy]

I'm afraid what you have there is a frankengun. The barrel might have been cut down from a longer one. That's why the barrel markings aren't present. Roll marks would have been at the top of the cut off portion if you can't see them anywhere else. I can tell by where that flash hider meets the barrel. Remove the fake moderator, the threads will tell the story. Maybe a Colt barrel, maybe not. However, nothing wrong with a cut down barrel.

The recoil buffer is a mystery, but I think Cavalry Arms makes/made something along those lines.

The pins holding the front sight tower were replaced with those split pins. That wasn't a smart idea. It needs either taper pins or straight solid roll pins.

Your upper is probably an Olympic Arms early model used for either 9mm, .40 cal, or .45 carbine. It's definitely not a Colt. Early Colts were not made that color and should have markings. Looks like an Oly. Colts also had very specific type of arrow next to the sight wheel. There were several variations. That one's not one of them.

The only parts worth considering are the port door and the sight wheel. Those are definitely Colt. I'm afraid that's all that's Colt.

However that's not say you can't use all this to build your first gun. I think it would all make a great project for very little money now that you have it all. As you learn, you can change, add, rebuild and try different things as parts come available to you. That's half the fun with ARs.

Keep at it and learn as much as you can. Lots of great info out there and on these forums.