My M305 Project (range update in last post interesting results)

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Freerider

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Decided to start this thread for a few reasons, mainly to show people thinking about tweaking their M305 but worried about doing it themselves that someone with minimal experience can do it. Also wanted to say thanks to the people on here who gave me advice and to seek some more advice trouble shooting a few problem areas. So here we go My 2009 poly purchased new a year ago, observations the iron sights on it were horrible would fall apart while shooting. with factory ammo groups were in the 6in at 100m range didn't take any pics to embarrassed. First upgrade arms 18 base and a redfield 2-7x33 and a tacpro cheek rest groups cut to about 4in yay best 600$ ever (only mild sarcasm) all great gear just didnt get the accuracy I was hoping for. On the plus side look cool factor way up.
IMG_0037.jpg



Next up do some research and realize my gas lock tightens up at about the 9 found out this is bad at this point decided I need some advice PM'd Hungry got some great advice on my rifle and reloading and bonus shipped me some shims big thanks to Hungry. Start reloading at this point no major accuracy gains yet I blame my rounds. Found Mystic players great article on loading for the M14 this was a huge help for me (bad news is link to it off his sight is broken and I can't find it anymore). Started shooting this rifle a lot more this spring and started getting a lot of stoppages found out it was common with the arms 18 and a quick search found M14 Doctors advice to fix trimmed my extractor and ejector springs problem solved also thanks to M14 Doctor and Hungry realized I needed to set back my Stock Ferule. Also at this time changed out my Op rod spring guide for a NEA stainless.
IMG_0030.jpg
IMG_0034.jpg


And the end result with my reloads rifle is shooting in the 2 to 2.5 MOA consistently still working on it goal is consistent sub 2 MOA. These groups where shot off the bench with a solid front rest and rear bag wind gusting from the 2.
100M tgt
IMG_0046.jpg

200M tgt
IMG_0045.jpg

300m tgt
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Things I am working on now is my reloads I feel very strongly this is where the biggest gains will be. Rifle is starting to have problems short stroking about one in 20 rounds will either not eject the empty casing or eject the casing chamber a new round but not #### the hammer. Gas system is run dry used grease in all the areas as per the stickies checked the piston for vaccum it passed checked the gas ports they line up I am careful seating mags don't think thats the problem not sure what is causing this any advice would be appreciated.
 
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Glad that this project is coming together for you. :D

Just as an aside.... there may be newbie M14 addicts here to this platform. :cool:

Back in Oct 2009, I was invited to a Law Enforcement Agency's Armorer workshop to deliver an M14 Clinic. :ninja: I'm not at liberty to mention which one, so don't ask! :eek:

These armorers were master craftsmen and happen to be great shooters with their match ammo (I'm not revealing which brand, either). All of their groups were (archived in FAT binders) under an inch :eek: from CHU Wood stocks. Many of you know how much I abhor those toxic oil laden Kommunist Zhinese balsa wood pieces of.... furniture. :D

So, it can be done as MysticPlayer and NavyShooter have performed numerous handload experiments that go back about 8 years ago. Been there, done that. Bought the second :eek: M14 to prevent #### loss! :p

:cheers:

Barney
 
Freerider said:
Decided to start this thread for a few reasons, mainly to show people thinking about tweaking their M305 but worried about doing it themselves that someone with minimal experience can do it. Also wanted to say thanks to the people on here who gave me advice and to seek some more advice trouble shooting a few problem areas. So here we go My 2009 poly purchased new a year ago, observations the iron sights on it were horrible would fall apart while shooting. with factory ammo groups were in the 6in at 100m range didn't take any pics to embarrassed. First upgrade arms 18 base and a redfield 2-7x33 and a tacpro cheek rest groups cut to about 4in yay best 600$ ever (only mild sarcasm) all great gear just didnt get the accuracy I was hoping for. On the plus side look cool factor way up. Next up do some research and realize my gas lock tightens up at about the 9 found out this is bad at this point decided I need some advice PM'd Hungry got some great advice on my rifle and reloading and bonus shipped me some shims big thanks to Hungry. Start reloading at this point no major accuracy gains yet I blame my rounds. Found Mystic players great article on loading for the M14 this was a huge help for me (bad news is link to it off his sight is broken and I can't find it anymore). Started shooting this rifle a lot more this spring and started getting a lot of stoppages found out it was common with the arms 18 and a quick search found M14 Doctors advice to fix trimmed my extractor and ejector springs problem solved also thanks to M14 Doctor and Hungry realized I needed to set back my Stock Ferule. Also at this time changed out my Op rod spring guide for a NEA stainless. And the end result with my reloads rifle is shooting in the 2 to 2.5 MOA consistently still working on it goal is consistent sub 2 MOA. (Pics of rifle and groups to follow very soon once I upload some). Things I am working on now is my reloads I feel very strongly this is where the biggest gains will be. Rifle is starting to have problems short stroking about one in 20 rounds will either not eject the empty casing or eject the casing chamber a new round but not #### the hammer. Gas system is run dry used grease in all the areas as per the stickies checked the piston for vaccum it passed checked the gas ports they line up I am careful seating mags don't think thats the problem not sure what is causing this any advice would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Two pieces of advice:

1) Make sure your reloads are stout enough. The M14, wonderful platform that it is, unfortunately does not have an adjustable gas system so you need to work your reloads in a fairly narrow band wrt pressure. IMR4895 and H4895 are the standard "go to" powders for this rifle. Bullets should be in the 147-168gr range.

2) I know you said your rifle is greased, BUT... what kind of grease and how much? These rifles like to run sloppy. I prefer Superlube or Lubriplate and I healthily slather it on thick. LOTS on the op rod spring as well. Everywhere the bolt touches should be smeared thickly with grease except the locking surfaces of the lugs and receiver. Make sure the is A LOT inside the op rod "hump".
 
Claven2 said:
Two pieces of advice:

1) Make sure your reloads are stout enough. The M14, wonderful platform that it is, unfortunately does not have an adjustable gas system so you need to work your reloads in a fairly narrow band wrt pressure. IMR4895 and H4895 are the standard "go to" powders for this rifle. Bullets should be in the 147-168gr range.

2) I know you said your rifle is greased, BUT... what kind of grease and how much? These rifles like to run sloppy. I prefer Superlube or Lubriplate and I healthily slather it on thick. LOTS on the op rod spring as well. Everywhere the bolt touches should be smeared thickly with grease except the locking surfaces of the lugs and receiver. Make sure the is A LOT inside the op rod "hump".
Click to expand...

This is the main reason I come on this site, I find myself learning something new all the time.
I'm an old hand at hunting and trapping but new to the m14 fun rifle I only have two of them right now.
 
To answer Claven my load is 155SMK 44gr of H4895 it's stout got a chance to fire a few of a chrony today came in around 2850 es and Ed where huge though. Grease I am using high temp multi purpose grease I thought I put it on pretty thick. Nate18 pics are coming just got to get them loaded up be patient first time posting pics.
 
Was it cold outside on your last outing? If it was really frigid, some greases thicken up.

Also, are you running a Wolf spring? Some guns don't run well with these overpower springs. If that is your issue, try switching back to the Norinco spring or get an M1A spring.

Lastly, does your rifle pass the tilt test? Remove the op rod spring and tilt the barrelled action 30 degrees muzzle up and muzzle down. The bolt should fully open and close with the op rod under gravity. If not, you have binding somewhere - probably due to the op rod guide being out of alignment. This can be corrected by either fixing barrel indexing or by using a lead bar (or dead blow hammer) to "adjust" the op rod guide alignment.
 
I've shot with this grease in -20 blowing snow no problems did have a few stoppages but it was ejected casings getting jammed under my arms mount. Last couple times I've been out it's been around +5. All my springs are the ones the rifle came with I have trimmed the ejector and extractor by 2/3 coils to fix the stoppages with the arms mount I will try the tilt test next chance I get. Thanks for the tip.
 
Freerider said:
I've shot with this grease in -20 blowing snow no problems did have a few stoppages but it was ejected casings getting jammed under my arms mount. Last couple times I've been out it's been around +5. All my springs are the ones the rifle came with I have trimmed the ejector and extractor by 2/3 coils to fix the stoppages with the arms mount I will try the tilt test next chance I get. Thanks for the tip.
Click to expand...

Also, take a look at where the brass is impacting. Is it hitting the mount, or the rings. The nice thing about the ARMS mount is it is nice and low. The bad thing about it is that it puts the scope rings quite low. The brass can get hung up on the rings as a result.
 
a real wiggly oprod (at the tab) can occasionally bind just enough to slow the oprod's inertia and fail to chamber or pick up a round

but carbonrod is probably on to something with mentioning the arms 18. while you may not be getting brass jams with the springs trimmed, there may be some interaction with the mount/oprod/extracting case that is causing a loss of inertia in the oprod travel.
you should see evidence of brass marking the underside of the mount or the leading edge of the oprod where it is closest to the mount.

finally, being that it only happens once in a while...... number your mags with felt pen and a strip of tape on the bottom. every time the short stoke happens, observe which mag you have in the rifle. this will allow you to rule out a mag with a binding follower or soft follower spring.
 
Claven2 I tried the tilt test this morning bolt fully opened and closed at about 45 degrees. M14 Doctor I have noticed brass markings on the underside of the mount and on the oprod about a 1 1/2 inches in front of the cocking handle. Took a picture this morning to show you.
IMG_0051.jpg


What do you think?

Also been going through my log book for reloading and was wondering if my brass might be the problem. I am on the 4th firing on most my cases they've been full length resized once then neck sized twice on the second neck sizing I used a redding body die to bump the shoulders back .003. This was the last batch I fired and I had significantly less stoppages with these. Going to try bumping the shoulder back a bit more and see if that helps. I like the idea of numbering my mags was already planning on doing something similar but I don't think that is what is causing this problem as on my last range trip I only used one of my mags to fire 50rnds and only had 4 stoppages twice it failed to extract a empty casing and twice it chambered a round but didn't #### the hammer. I am going to try my other mags on the next trip see if that helps.
 
if it chambered a round fully and did not #### the hammer ...... holy geebus yer playing with a slam fire

what kind of stock is it in? when installing does it take lots or little pressure to snap the trigger guard closed?
 
The hammer thing scared me, rifle is still in the plastic stock it came in it has been bedded didn't have a problem with it short stroking after bedding was still having problems with ejected casing getting jammed up under the arms mount. It takes I would describe as moderate pressure to close the trigger guard. I know that isn't very helpful don't really have anything to compare it to. Chambering a live but not cocking the hammer has only happened a couple times and only recently only real changes I made to the rifle before this started was the the oprod spring guide, trimmed the ejector and extractor springs and tried a new load with 155 SMK and H4895. When it did happen I ejected the live round checked the primer and there was no real mark on it from the firing pin. I don't think its a sear problem I've never touched the sears and I regularly check them by holding back the trigger cocking the rifle reseting the trigger dry firing and repeating at least 10 times in a row I do this every time I have the rifle apart or change anything it has never failed this test.
 
So you recently changed spring guide? Which brand?

Do you still have the old one? Try switching back and see if that solves it.

SOME (but not all) spring guides need a little fitting - if yours is one of them, it could be binding the spring up near the receiver and preventing the oprod from fully opening.
 
If it's not feeding right and you are only neck sizing I would look at your ammo first.

How do you control the shoulder bump to .003? I brought the redding competition shellholders but even the .10 die still gives me another .10 of shoulder bump.
 
I use a hornady gage to measure my fired cases then adjust my redding body die down until I get the amount of sizing I want. I then use a lee collet neck sizer to size the neck. So played with the rifle a bunch tonight I can't find anywhere the oprod is binding tried it in the stock and out the only resistance I felt when I #### the action slowly is the hammer there is a definite increase in resistance as the hammer is pushed onto the sears. I got a USGI stock I am going to try the rifle in to see if the bedding was the problem I am also going to go back to my load I was using with 4064 wasn't as accurate but don't remember having as many stoppages. Was really looking forward to using 4895 in my rifle was also wondering if I should try a heavier bullet was doing some reading got the impression that most people use 4895 with a 168 grain bullet any thoughts?
 
So got out to the range a few days ago and tried my rifle out in the USGI stock. I also adjusted my body die down to bump the shoulders back a bit more measured 50 fired cases attached the hornady gauge to my calipers then zeroed them longest cases measured 1.627 shortest measured 1.623 avg was 1.626 the vast majority of cases measured 1.627. So I adjusted my die to bump the shoulders to 1.620 test fitted in my rifle they drop in with out resistance out of curiosity I tried them in my 700P couldn't close the bolt so still a "custom" fit to my rifle. I left the NEA op rod spring guide in and everything else is the same. Was very impressed with the results fired 60 rounds and had zero short stroke problems. I did have 8 stoppages but they were all caused by the ejected case getting caught between the oprod and my Arms mount right at the base of my front set of rings. I already tried moving the rings back earlier didn't fix the problem cases still got caught in the same spot so I put them back. As per my original post I trimmed my extractor and ejector springs already I am considering trimming another coil or coil and a 1/2 and see if that helps if that dosn't do it I am going to try and order a new set possibly from 7.62mm firearms might need another set anyway wouldn't hurt to have spares. Now for the part that really impressed me my accuracy was greatly improved shot the same loads I used previously and groups were cut almost in 1/2. As a note I did not take my time firing these groups I fired all 60rnds in a little over an hour thats including two walks down range. There was another group shooting at the range was not impressed with their weapon handling or general fire arms safety they had no business owning a rifle much less the AR's they where blasting away with like 223 was free don't think they realized the but is supposed to go in the shoulder. First time I've ever felt nervous going down range with people near their rifles. Overall not the best range experience had no desire to shoot with them around. But despite managed the best shooting this rifle has ever done all groups fired off the bench with a solid front rest and rear bag.

This was my best of 3 200m groups the rest where close to this but would always have that one flyer that opened it up, calipers are set to 308 then zeroed so its showing centre to centre measurement.

P5110031.jpg


An example of a good 200m group with that one %*^& flier I think I need to work on my reloading to improve consistency.

P5110032.jpg



This is a 10 rnd 300m group the rounds above and below the black circle are part of 5 round groups I fired getting my 300m zero.


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At this point I am going to trim the springs again unless some convinces me a very important appendage will fall off if I do. I would like to use this rifle for service rifle competition and these stoppages would cost me a lot of points so top priority is to fix this, would load changes help with this I am planning on trying some 168's up to now I've used 150 and 155 gr bullets. Going to work on my reloads try and get a better consistency to tame those fliers some more trigger time probably wouldn't hurt either. Would again appreciate any advice from the guys on here that have the experience. Also thanks for the great advice I've gotten so far its been very helpful.
 
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My .02

I had similar ejection issues with a mount that rides almost as low as the A.R.M.S. 18 : the Leatherwood. I tryed trimming the norc springs by 3 coils on the ejector and 2 coils on the extractor. It was too much; my extractor would pop out after each round (I suspect it was the extractor spring that was too short since my norc ejector spring was longer than a USGI). I then put a Wolff spring kit in the rifle but the ejector spring was too stiff and the riffle couldn't go into battery.

I finally put in an USGI extractor, ejector and extractor springs from TreelineM14 and lo and behold, after firing one shot, the rifle now ejects and reloads a round ! Can't wait to take it to the range now.

P.S. How do you like the Redfield 2-7 X 33? What reticle do you have? I'd like to put one on my rifle.
 
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