Any trapdoor shooters here?

Ol' Smokey

Ol' Smokey

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So I got myself a nice, intact 1888 rifle, with a bore that looks very good.

Obviously, I want to shoot it.

I understand that the bores on these rifles vary a lot, so I am wondering what the best approach would be.

Slug the bore? How do you measure bore diameter on 3 groove rifling?

I have a Lyman Postell mold, but really want to shoot a 500 grain bullet duplicating the government load. Which current offerings are available that would most closely resemble the original bullet?

I am not expecting incredible accuracy, but if I got 2-3" groups with BP at 100 yards, I'd be very happy.

As a newb to this rifle, and to matching bullets to bores, any advice, comments, or exchange of experiences with these historic BP guns would be appreciated.:)
 
For the past 35 years I have shooting trapdoors of various models. I started with an M1884 infantry rifle, then a M1888 Rod Bayonet, back to an 1884, then an 1878 rifle. They have all been relatively consistent in bore sizes though I have had an 1878 carbine that was tighter then the rest. Generally speaking a 0.459" bore diameter is common, though I have seen .0460" to 0.463". Luckily I have found an old Lyman mold #457193...it casts out a 0.462 bullet at around 420 grains...it is a flat point. The lead mix has been straight wheel weights...never got into the tedious BS of mixing alloys...it was too time consuming. The old weight we scavenged were quite good and reasonable consistent for hardness...naturally they were not as hard as Linotype and a lot harder then pure lead. The loads we have used over the years are fairly simple as well...54.5 grains FFg straight from a red Lee dipper. We tried up to 61 grains with no marked improvement. The singular most important thing to do when loading for trapdoors is to use an wad behind the bullet...felt works best though I have good results with the Ox-Yoke Wonder Wads. Have never used a filler (corn meal, dacron) of any kind nor a drop tube to charge the cases. Regular Large rifle primers have always worked well for us.
If you are wondering, my family has been shooting the 45-70 in trapdoors and Pederzoli rolling blocks for years, and our trophy cabinets are well stocked with prizes for cartridge rifle target matches out to 100 yards. If I recall the best group I have fired was a 1" group in the ten ring at 100 yards shot off cross-sticks. Years ago I built a trapdoor 38-55 into a Hawken style rifle...it too was consistent match winner.
 
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Ol' Smokey said:
So I got myself a nice, intact 1888 rifle, with a bore that looks very good. This is an excellent gun to start with, as long as the bore is clean with very little pitting

Slug the bore? How do you measure bore diameter on 3 groove rifling?
Drive a slug down the bore and note if goes in easier at points or consistent the length of the barrel. There is a very small spot to measure diameter, will take a very close examination of the bullet to line up a groove to land. It takes a few tries but can be done.
I have a Lyman Postell mold, but really want to shoot a 500 grain bullet duplicating the government load. Which current offerings are available that would most closely resemble the original bullet?
Tried the 500 with no good results...the earlier load was a 405 grains bullet for both the carbine and rifle, with heavier powder charge for the rifle. A lot of guys have the misconception that the rifle round was ONLY 500 grains, not exactly true. Later loads, after 1880 the 500gr was very common, due in part to experiments with the Springfield Long Range Rifle chambered in 45 2 4/10", aka 45-90 which used the 500 gr bullet for Government loading. Also, Frankford changed to a tin plated brass case rather then the folded head copper cases
I am not expecting incredible accuracy, but if I got 2-3" groups with BP at 100 yards, I'd be very happy. With good loads you can get better results off a bench rest

As a newb to this rifle, and to matching bullets to bores, any advice, comments, or exchange of experiences with these historic BP guns would be appreciated.:) Don't get discouraged and keep working at it and you will find the right combination that shoot your socks off!!!!!!
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Reply to your questions
 
Alonzo said:
For the past 35 years I have shooting trapdoors of various models. I started with an M1884 infantry rifle, then a M1888 Rod Bayonet, back to an 1884, then an 1878 rifle. They have all been relatively consistent in bore sizes though I have had an 1878 carbine that was tighter then the rest. Generally speaking a 0.459" bore diameter is common, though I have seen .0460" to 0.463". Luckily I have found an old Lyman mold #457193...it casts out a 0.462 bullet at around 420 grains...it is a flat point. The lead mix has been straight wheel weights...never got into the tedious BS of mixing alloys...it was too time consuming. The old weight we scavenged were quite good and reasonable consistent for hardness...naturally they were not as hard as Linotype and a lot harder then pure lead. The loads we have used over the years are fairly simple as well...54.5 grains FFg straight from a red Lee dipper. We tried up to 61 grains with no marked improvement. The singular most important thing to do when loading for trapdoors is to use an wad behind the bullet...felt works best though I have good results with the Ox-Yoke Wonder Wads. Have never used a filler (corn meal, dacron) of any kind nor a drop tube to charge the cases. Regular Large rifle primers have always worked well for us.
If you are wondering, my family has been shooting the 45-70 in trapdoors and Pederzoli rolling blocks for years, and our trophy cabinets are well stocked with prizes for cartridge rifle target matches out to 100 yards. If I recall the best group I have fired was a 1" group in the ten ring at 100 yards shot off cross-sticks. Years ago I built a trapdoor 38-55 into a Hawken style rifle...it too was consistent match winner.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for all the valuable info!

I am raising my expectations somewhat.

I also have a Pedersoli Sharps silhouette rifle in .45-70 that is a hoot to shoot, and I really enjoy BP with her.

I also have a cut down carbine on the way, that may be my (BP) deer gun this year.

So I see myself developing accuracy loads for the rifle, fun loads for the carbine, and a hunting load for the carbine, with a lighter bullet.

I have been using wheelweights as well, with modest success. I ended up buying a couple of large bars of pure lead, and plan to mix up a batch of 20:1 to start with for target work.

I wonder if the hunting bullet should be a softer alloy, maybe even pure lead?
 
BrotherRockeye said:
I'm a wannabe trapdoor shooter :p
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What!!! A gun Nut without a trapdoor??? What is this world coming to??? ;)
I will try not to rub it in here...don't take this wrong...I had in the collection nearly 50 trapdoors of different variations, some there were only 1000 made.
They are long gone...:(:(:(:(:(
Still got few though...First and Second Allin's Conversion, 1868, 1877 and 1884.
My shooter is an 1873, circa 1880...you never know it might be for sale someday...soon.
 
Ol' Smokey said:
Thank you so much for all the valuable info!

I wonder if the hunting bullet should be a softer alloy, maybe even pure lead?
Click to expand...

I used the same bullet/BP combination (Wheel weights) for deer several years ago with good success in a trapdoor rifle. If you go with pure lead you will get heavy leading in the barrel...tried that and didn't like cleaning it out. The sheer weight and diameter of eh bullet will put down most any deer sized game. I drove a doe into the ground from a 80 yards looking down at her... the bullet traveled from just behind the top of her ribs and exited the chest between her legs. It was a clean kill!!!
Had a good laugh with a Fish Wildlife officer. I had the gun leaning on the bumper of my truck with the breech open when he pulled up. It was very windy and the breechblock was swinging...he looked down at the gun and stared at it with his mouth open. I told him it was the swinging #### of guns, he nearly fell over laughing. When I showed him the gun he wanted to shoot it, since we had not seen anything all day I let him fire a round into the ditch...it nearly knocked him over. Another good laugh was had!!
 
Had a Carbine, long ago. It was the 'Great BP Experiment'. Trapdoor Carbine ammo did not use 70 grains of powder. It hurts to shoot. No Internet in those days. Found out much later it should have been 55 grains with a lubed 405 grain cast bullet.
A .458" 405 grain lead RN was the standard bullet weight. Not 500.
Rummage around here. http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/
 
sunray said:
Had a Carbine, long ago. It was the 'Great BP Experiment'. Trapdoor Carbine ammo did not use 70 grains of powder. It hurts to shoot. No Internet in those days. Found out much later it should have been 55 grains with a lubed 405 grain cast bullet.
A .458" 405 grain lead RN was the standard bullet weight. Not 500.
Rummage around here. http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/
Click to expand...

I read somewhere that the Buffington rifle (not carbine) sight post 1884 was calibrated for the trajectory of the 500 grain bullet.

Since the rifle is for range use, that doesn't really matter.

The carbine was set up for the 405 grain bullet, so for hunting, I'd like to match the trajectory of the lighter bullet.

More useful info being posted here - Thanks, guys.
 
Alonzo said:
I used the same bullet/BP combination (Wheel weights) for deer several years ago with good success in a trapdoor rifle. If you go with pure lead you will get heavy leading in the barrel...tried that and didn't like cleaning it out. The sheer weight and diameter of eh bullet will put down most any deer sized game. I drove a doe into the ground from a 80 yards looking down at her... the bullet traveled from just behind the top of her ribs and exited the chest between her legs. It was a clean kill!!!
Had a good laugh with a Fish Wildlife officer. I had the gun leaning on the bumper of my truck with the breech open when he pulled up. It was very windy and the breechblock was swinging...he looked down at the gun and stared at it with his mouth open. I told him it was the swinging #### of guns, he nearly fell over laughing. When I showed him the gun he wanted to shoot it, since we had not seen anything all day I let him fire a round into the ditch...it nearly knocked him over. Another good laugh was had!!
Click to expand...

So maybe I'll nickname my rifle #### .......:D
 
Alonzo said:
For the past 35 years I have shooting trapdoors of various models. I started with an M1884 infantry rifle, then a M1888 Rod Bayonet, back to an 1884, then an 1878 rifle...

Luckily I have found an old Lyman mold #457193...it casts out a 0.462 bullet at around 420 grains...it is a flat point.

The loads we have used over the years are fairly simple as well...54.5 grains FFg straight from a red Lee dipper

. ... and our trophy cabinets are well stocked with prizes for cartridge rifle target matches out to 100 yards. If I recall the best group I have fired was a 1" group in the ten ring at 100 yards shot off cross-sticks. ..
Click to expand...
Hi,

Great thread and great answers !!

I just acquired a a 1888 Trapdoor with a Buffington rear sight. ( I am in the process of cleaning all the old stuff inside the barrell... )

I would like to know if the FFG Goex 54.5 grains + 405 bullet would be right for the elevations of the Buffington sight over 250 yards to 500 yards ?

Thank you for your attention !

Gerald
 
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geraldbergeron said:
Ye,

I have this book...

But I was wondering about the recipe of Alonso with wheel weight in 400 grains with some 54 Goex FFg.... AND the ballistic which goes with the 1884 Buffington rear sight ...

Thank you.

Gerald
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Hey Gerald;
Welcome to the fraternity of Trapdoor shooters.
Let us start with the basics. The original front sight on the trapdoor will cause it to shoot high...to the tune of nearly 6 to 8" high at 50 yards with the rear sight at it's lowest setting. The idea used with muzzleloaders to compensate for a high point of impact will not work in this case (reducing powder charge to achieve a lower point of impact). So altering your powder charge in the 45-70 will not give you the results you want. In every shooter trapdoor I have owned, the first thing I did was to remove the front sight...CAREFULLY, and replace with a taller blade. This will, with experimentation lower the point of impact. Plus it will have the added bonus of giving you a wider front sight blade, which will dramatically improve your accuracy. The front sight blade height will end up about 1/8 to 3/16" taller then the original height.
Wheel Weight alloy...The weight weights we were able to procure had a harder consistency then pure lead. I cannot quote Brinnel Hardness as we never bothered. Neither did we bother combining tin, antimony and lead. All the effort was not beneficial in the long run. The "scratch test" worked for us...if you draw your finger nail across a pure lead projectile it will leave a deep scratch. Our wheel weight alloy would leave a mark though would not deeply scratch the surface. Pure Linotype projectiles would not leave any kind of mark. We did experiment with mixing Linotype and pure lead and came up a with a mix of about 3 to 1...pure lead to Linotype. These worked OK, though not as well as the wheel weight bullets.
The key here is to keep the process simple. If you listen to some guys with great ideas and an empty trophy cabinet you just get frustrated. The previous posts explain a lot that came from years of experience. The old saying is "Paralysis by over analysis"...keep it simple and the old girl will work wonders for you.
Yes, all you experts will laugh yourself silly at that approach...but guess what...it put a ton of trophies on the shelf. At a black powder shoot several years ago, I listened to a guy talk about how he mixed his lead with this alloy and that alloy, adding beeswax, and eye of newt, . He also told me about his "special secret" bullet lube of paraffin wax, Grape Jello, liquid hand sanitizer and ground up Yak toe nails. According to him, his 45-70 would shoot the dew off a gnats eyebrow at 300 yards in a 50 mile an hour cross wind, yet he did not win any awards at that match. The old trapdoor did well that day.
 
Awesome thread !!
Many Thanks Ol' Smoky and especially Alonzo.
Today I acquired a very nice Trapdoor from a fellow CGNer ( flashG ) and this fine thread has already answered several questions for me.
I'm certain there will be more questions in the near future so I really hope this fine thread keeps moving along...
Since I already had two 45-70s, one being a BP there are several bullet moulds of different weights and shapes on my bench, this old man is going to have a busy winter ! ;)
 
Just to be different, I have one that I rebarrelled to 38-55. Makes a fun gun to shoot with minimal recoil and cheap and easy to reload for. Also have a second one in 50-70 some meathead chopped the forend back

cheers mooncoon
 
mooncoon said:
Just to be different, I have one that I rebarrelled to 38-55. Makes a fun gun to shoot with minimal recoil and cheap and easy to reload for. Also have a second one in 50-70 some meathead chopped the forend back

cheers mooncoon
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The 38-55 is a great round for the trapdoor...just an enlarged extractor is needed. I built on into a half stock Hawken style...kind of a "Gemmer Trapdoor". Used a Siler lock with a hand worked hammer, and an extended tang on which I mounted a Lyman peep sight. It has double set triggers and two wedge forend.
The smith put on a rapid taper 30" barrel and I installed an under-rib and ramrod. The strange thing was that, at 50 yards, it would print a tight five shot group with three in one hole and directly one inch above the last two you could cover with a dime. It was consistent in doing this and it occurred at several matches. I finally removed the under-rib to see if it would change...and it did. The average group could be covered with a toonie...no double groups as above. Haven't sparked this one up in years and all the trapdoor talk has got me fired up again...though I did sell my shooter 45-70 trapdoor earlier this year.
 
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