All wz.29 stocks are the same, they didn't differentiate between straight and bent bolts. The only difference between cavalry and infantry rifles would be the handle, so there is no discernable feature or marking to tell them apart once the bolt is removed.
Polish Firearms 1921-1945
- Thread starter stoggie
- Start date
All wz.29 stocks are the same, they didn't differentiate between straight and bent bolts. The only difference between cavalry and infantry rifles would be the handle, so there is no discernable feature or marking to tell them apart once the bolt is removed.
Wonderful collection Stoggie! Its great to see all your Polish milsurps together in one post. I'm envious and grateful at the same time!
Would you mind taking some pics of the differences in the models for clarification, especially the various VIS pistols please. BTW where did you get that replica shoulder stock - is it specific to the VIS or did you manufacture/modify one yourself? And the holsters - are they replicas or authentic? The one for the Polish Radom looks like it might be a replica but the other German one looks real.
Now you need a Polish BAR and a AK made Sten.
Now to a few observations made by Murat...
I'm assuming you mean that the Soviets took over the Factory in Lwow and captured any remaining stocks of weapons not issued. Just to clarify, the Polish government never surrendered to the Nazis nor to the Soviets and went into exile in London, England. The Polish military fought with the Allies to victory over Nazi Germany. The Polish Home Army (Armia Krajowa - think French Underground but bigger and more organized) fought against both the Nazis, Soviets and Polish communists in Poland until about 1947.
It would be nice to believe that there are thousands of Model 91/98/25 rifles in storage but I doubt it. It has been reported in another thread that the Russians are now melting down remaining stocks of milsurps.
From what I've read, my understanding is that the Mauser was adopted by the Poles not the other way around hence the conversion of the Mosin M1891 to 8mm Mauser.
Production of the Kbk Wz.1898 began in 1924 at the Warsaw factory. The Wz. 29 began in 1929.
The Polish government created an export company SEPEWE in 1926 to export the Mosin Nagants captured by the Poles and not required - most were bought by the Finns. The Model 91/98/25 was only to be used as a stop gap until replaced by the Polish made Mausers.
Would you mind taking some pics of the differences in the models for clarification, especially the various VIS pistols please. BTW where did you get that replica shoulder stock - is it specific to the VIS or did you manufacture/modify one yourself? And the holsters - are they replicas or authentic? The one for the Polish Radom looks like it might be a replica but the other German one looks real.
Now you need a Polish BAR and a AK made Sten.
Now to a few observations made by Murat...
I'm assuming you mean that the Soviets took over the Factory in Lwow and captured any remaining stocks of weapons not issued. Just to clarify, the Polish government never surrendered to the Nazis nor to the Soviets and went into exile in London, England. The Polish military fought with the Allies to victory over Nazi Germany. The Polish Home Army (Armia Krajowa - think French Underground but bigger and more organized) fought against both the Nazis, Soviets and Polish communists in Poland until about 1947.
It would be nice to believe that there are thousands of Model 91/98/25 rifles in storage but I doubt it. It has been reported in another thread that the Russians are now melting down remaining stocks of milsurps.
From what I've read, my understanding is that the Mauser was adopted by the Poles not the other way around hence the conversion of the Mosin M1891 to 8mm Mauser.
Production of the Kbk Wz.1898 began in 1924 at the Warsaw factory. The Wz. 29 began in 1929.
The Polish government created an export company SEPEWE in 1926 to export the Mosin Nagants captured by the Poles and not required - most were bought by the Finns. The Model 91/98/25 was only to be used as a stop gap until replaced by the Polish made Mausers.
The shoulder stock is a repro made by Radom in the late 90's. When they remade the Radom VIS, they made a small extra run of shoulder stocks for collectors. Even the repro's are quite scarce. These repro's were made exactly as one of 3 known to exist, and that is the one in the Polish military museum in Warsaw. I was lucky enough to have both the pistol and stock offered to me by a fellow CGN'er, so for that I am very grateful. The Polish holster is a repro. The Nazi holster and belt were brought back with the early VIS on the far left.
Here are some pics showing the differences in the VIS pistols:
September 1939 VIS:
This one was hastily put together during the Nazi invasion. The barrel does not match, but it is Polish marked - this is common among the "blitzkreig VIS". You can also see that it is missing the firing proof and inspection marks. The firing proof would go by the de-cocking lever, and the inspection proof would be on the triggerguard - in 1939 it would be a D over a 2 in an oval. I'm still to aquire a prewar VIS.
Nazi type I VIS:
This VIS is the early one made by the Nazi's. It was put together with remaining parts from the Radom factory, and has a cut for the shoulder stock. It also has a bunch of Polish manufacturing marks. The barrel is Waa623, so it was made in Steyr where the pistol was put together.
Nazi type II VIS:
This is the most common VIS varient. It has no cut for the shoulder stock, and is otherwise identical to the Type I. The finish is not as nice as the above VIS pistols.
Nazi type III VIS:
This is the last varient. Tooling marks promenant and the finish is poor. The takedown lever is omitted, and the decocker double as a takedown lever. This is why you will notice the slide noches are in different places. Grip eschutons deleted, that is the reason for the larger grip screws. The grips are brown to denote the difference.
Some argue that there is a 4th varient, that is purely made at Steyr after the Radom plant was moved there. It does not show FB Radom on the slide, and simply is stamped BNZ. It would also show a phosphated finish. These also have wooden grips. This is a varient I am yet to aquire.
Here are some pics of the shoulder stock:
September 1939 VIS:
This one was hastily put together during the Nazi invasion. The barrel does not match, but it is Polish marked - this is common among the "blitzkreig VIS". You can also see that it is missing the firing proof and inspection marks. The firing proof would go by the de-cocking lever, and the inspection proof would be on the triggerguard - in 1939 it would be a D over a 2 in an oval. I'm still to aquire a prewar VIS.
Nazi type I VIS:
This VIS is the early one made by the Nazi's. It was put together with remaining parts from the Radom factory, and has a cut for the shoulder stock. It also has a bunch of Polish manufacturing marks. The barrel is Waa623, so it was made in Steyr where the pistol was put together.
Nazi type II VIS:
This is the most common VIS varient. It has no cut for the shoulder stock, and is otherwise identical to the Type I. The finish is not as nice as the above VIS pistols.
Nazi type III VIS:
This is the last varient. Tooling marks promenant and the finish is poor. The takedown lever is omitted, and the decocker double as a takedown lever. This is why you will notice the slide noches are in different places. Grip eschutons deleted, that is the reason for the larger grip screws. The grips are brown to denote the difference.
Some argue that there is a 4th varient, that is purely made at Steyr after the Radom plant was moved there. It does not show FB Radom on the slide, and simply is stamped BNZ. It would also show a phosphated finish. These also have wooden grips. This is a varient I am yet to aquire.
Here are some pics of the shoulder stock:
Just additional info on the VIS pistol estimated production dates:
Pre WWII Polish made - 1936-1939 - approx 50,000
Type I VIS - Approx 60,000 - 1940-1941
Type II VIS - Approx 170,000 - 1942-1943
Type II VIS - Approx 95,000 - 1943-1945
There is an excellent book called "The Radom Pistol" by Robert Berger that has excellent information on this handgun.
Pre WWII Polish made - 1936-1939 - approx 50,000
Type I VIS - Approx 60,000 - 1940-1941
Type II VIS - Approx 170,000 - 1942-1943
Type II VIS - Approx 95,000 - 1943-1945
There is an excellent book called "The Radom Pistol" by Robert Berger that has excellent information on this handgun.
Thanks for the pics. I really appreciate the ones of the stock! Replica or not, I've never seen pics of the shoulder stock or how the VIS is stored in one as good as yours. Would you mind taking some pics of the holsters as well, especially any markings. Why the different shapes for the holsters?
To Fugavi,
They were stored at Fortress of Brest Litovsk which was abandond on Sep 14, Germans took over the stores but had to leave all untouched to the Soviet Army when they tooke it Sep 19. Exact number build 71 350 rifles. Marshal Pilsucki was the Minister of War at the time of the selection it was done in 1919, he personaly selected Mosin-Nagant rifle, this was approved by the Ministy of War with series of recomendations for practical changes to the design. Treaty of Versile changed that with the gift of Danzig Factory
They were stored at Fortress of Brest Litovsk which was abandond on Sep 14, Germans took over the stores but had to leave all untouched to the Soviet Army when they tooke it Sep 19. Exact number build 71 350 rifles. Marshal Pilsucki was the Minister of War at the time of the selection it was done in 1919, he personaly selected Mosin-Nagant rifle, this was approved by the Ministy of War with series of recomendations for practical changes to the design. Treaty of Versile changed that with the gift of Danzig Factory
Murat, where are you getting your information from? Józef Piłsudski was the Chief of State in 1919 and only became the Minister of War/General Inspector of the Armed Forces in 1926. The Poles were fighting the Bolsheviks in 1919. Polish forces would have been armed with a variety of rifles from French Lebels and possibly Berthiers (Haller's Blue Army) to German Mausers (Polnische Wehrmacht) to Mosin Nagants (various Polish Divisions) and Austria Hungarian Steyr Mannlicher M95 rifles and carbines (Polish Legions). I have seen photos of Polish soldiers using a variety of weapons and uniforms during this time. Perhaps the Poles thought about standardizing on the Mosin Nagant like the Finns did but the reality is they did not.
There were three variations of the 8mm Polish conversion: Wz.91/98/23, Wz.91/98/25, and Wz.91/98/26 - in each the last number is the year of adoption. The Poles captured quantities of the MN M1891 after defeating the Bolsheviks in the Polish/Soviet War Of 1919-1920. It would make sense to standardize on one bullet/cartridge after the war was over and the Danzig Armaments Factory was transferred to the Poles in 1921.
I'd like to believe there are thousands of the M91/98/23/25/26s somewhere in Russia. Just like I'd like to believe I'm going to win the Lotto. I hope you are right.
Here are some pics of the holsters.
The Polish holster has a place for 2 mags and a cleaning rod:
The Nazi one has provision only for 1 mag. I guess the Nazi's didn't care for a 2nd mag or a cleaning rod. You can see the faint Waa and the P35(p) marking:
The Polish holster has a place for 2 mags and a cleaning rod:
The Nazi one has provision only for 1 mag. I guess the Nazi's didn't care for a 2nd mag or a cleaning rod. You can see the faint Waa and the P35(p) marking:
I haven't seen any Radom Nagants with my own eyes, but I would love to have one. I'm not sure how many are in Canada, but I'm sure they are as scarce here as they are in the US. There is one that I know of in Canada, but it is Russian captured. It is all Radom proofed parts, but the side plate was replaced with a Russian Izhevsk one dated 1940, probably to hide that it was taken from the Poles. It also had Belgian proofs on the cylinder. This would be because the Poles bought the tools and all remaining spares from Belgium. A fellow CGN'er has it and was nice enough to share pics with me.
Interestingly enough, I have seen one Polish VIS that was Russian captured, and the slide markings were all removed. So I think that the Russians didn't like that Polish eagle very much.
I would think there are quite a few Radom wz.29's in Russia. Hopefully they will release some on the market. Perhaps they know what they're worth and are asking too much. Apparently they were used as home guard rifles. Here is a pic of (what I'm told is) Russian women with a bunch of wz.29 rifles:
Well Lenin and his Bolshevik hordes were the same as the Tsar and the Imperialists cohorts - they all viewed Poland and the Poles as part of the 'Empire' and not free people to choose their own destiny!
I would think there are quite a few Radom wz.29's in Russia. Hopefully they will release some on the market. Perhaps they know what they're worth and are asking too much. Apparently they were used as home guard rifles. Here is a pic of (what I'm told is) Russian women with a bunch of wz.29 rifles:
If that's the case I hope they release some Polish bayonets as well. I've only seen two for sale in the past two years - one in Canada and one in the USA. I was outbided on the one in the States and someone bought the other in Canada before I did.
To Fugavi is you want Polish pre-war Mauser Bayonet, try allegro.pl they come around quite often. Radom still makes them in presentation cases I think they are around $150.00.
As of 1989 there were still few hundred(not alot) model wz.29 rifles in Industrial Guards storages. After 2000 goverment released few dewated wz.29 on Polish Market for re-enacment groups, but how many I'm not sure, there was no bayonets with the rifles
As of 1989 there were still few hundred(not alot) model wz.29 rifles in Industrial Guards storages. After 2000 goverment released few dewated wz.29 on Polish Market for re-enacment groups, but how many I'm not sure, there was no bayonets with the rifles
A number of years ago a friend of mine had a second model Radom with matching belt and holster. I offered to buy it but he decided to sell it (practically gave it away) to Jim another member of our club. I told Jim if he wanted to sell it there was a gentleman in Toronto that would double or tripple the price he paid for the gun. A few weeks later Jim called me up an asked if te guy in Toronto was still interested in the Radom. I told him the guy was still interested, then he told me he had made a few improvements like removed the sights and milled the receiver for some Millet sights. It was in excellent shape and anything this guy touched he would F**k it up. I can't understand how people can do things like that.
That totally sucks. I feel very fortunate to have mine. (Type II, Nazi marked) It shoots very well for 70 years old military handgun.
Thanks Murat, I'll check it out. One of the ones I missed out was a F.B. Radom bayonet and the other was a German WW1 rework - I believe it was called a Model 1922 bayonet.
Last time I went to Czech Rep, Owner of Zelenysport, they are the main importer of Radom products into Czech Rep. He told me that for now the have contract with Works11 in Poland they export Semi-auto Radom Tantal rifles to czech Rep, Works11 holds the rights to making MAG-95/98 pistol and to Radom/Vis Pistol. Works11 was thinking of puting both of them if there is demand for sale in Czech Rep.
If there would be enough intrest in Canada 100 pistols will do it we could get Radoms here
If there would be enough intrest in Canada 100 pistols will do it we could get Radoms here
