.44 mag for Moose?

[Gatehouse]

Ah, true enough. However the basis of the .45-70's highest killing power is not speed or energy, it is a heavy, blunt, hard cast solid or patition with a modest velocity between 1400 and 1600 fps. /

If you already knew all this, why did you start the thread?

 

[skokie]

If you already knew all this, why did you start the thread?

I have been researching it and also reading the thread to see opinion and personal experience of those who have successfully used the cartridges. As often research doesn't paint a whole picture.

 

[Wrong Way]

OK...here you go.

Moose (X2). Smallest, 650 lbs, largest: 900 bulll. Ranges: 58 yards and 96 yards, # of shots: Moose 1: Two. Moose 2: 1

Bear (X11) Smallest: (embarassing), Largest: 490 lbs. Ranges: 2' to 119 yards. Vast majority with one shot, occasionally two.

Deer: Lost count around 15. Ranges from 15 yards to 150 ish. Mostly one shot kills.

Ammo: Deer/bear: Winchester 240 JSP's, Moose: Corbon 300 gr. hard cast (I have a box of these to sell BTW if anyone is looking )

My thoughts on the 45/70: IF and only IF you handload, great cartridge. Factory ammo is ALL incredibly weak as it is loaded to prevent someone from blowing themselves up shooting it in an antique.

If you A: Don't handload, B: Can't stalk, and C: Can't shoot and feel you need more power to compenstae: Get a .450 Marlin. Factory loads FAR exceed the 45/70 as only modern firearms are chambered in it so they can.

That is all.

 

[RememberTheSomme]

OK...here you go.

Moose (X2). Smallest, 650 lbs, largest: 900 bulll. Ranges: 58 yards and 96 yards, # of shots: Moose 1: Two. Moose 2: 1

Bear (X11) Smallest: (embarassing), Largest: 490 lbs. Ranges: 2' to 119 yards. Vast majority with one shot, occasionally two.

Deer: Lost count around 15. Ranges from 15 yards to 150 ish. Mostly one shot kills.

Ammo: Deer/bear: Winchester 240 JSP's, Moose: Corbon 300 gr. hard cast (I have a box of these to sell BTW if anyone is looking )

My thoughts on the 45/70: IF and only IF you handload, great cartridge. Factory ammo is ALL incredibly weak as it is loaded to prevent someone from blowing themselves up shooting it in an antique.

If you A: Don't handload, B: Can't stalk, and C: Can't shoot and feel you need more power to compenstae: Get a .450 Marlin. Factory loads FAR exceed the 45/70 as only modern firearms are chambered in it so they can.

That is all.

Thank you for posting this list, I assume it's in answer to my post with my question's to your original post.

Impressive list with every detail I asked for.

This is the kind of post I like to see.

My question to your original post started a Dramatic mini-series with another fellow CGN'er, over my response to your OP.

It was not intended to be rude or disrespectful, though at first I felt your original short post, kinda brushed aside my ideas without facts or data to back it up. The reference to Marty I couldn't resist but the raze face should have showed my jab was in fun.

Adding what you just did , to yout original post , would have been a little easier for me to take a schooling over.

Sounds like a worthy choice to the .45-70 after all the data you compiled. Only question I can ask which is important to me on big game in heavy cover is..... Were the animals always dropped or what amount made off and distances, before being found? This is my experiences with short barrelled carbines in .30-30(18.5" Marlin 336TS) and .32 Special( 16" Barrel 94 Wrangler)?? versus a BLR .308?? I'd say a 50/50 rate on downing in tracks with .30/30 would be fair, though every proper hit always kill's just some you must find.

.450 Marlin is a great choice, and thebest of all mentioned big bore, probaly, I felt for me straying from his original options after mentioning a BLR .308 was enough so I didn't mention other's.

 

[Wrong Way]

Some fell like a sack of hammers, some fell 20 yards away, some went 75+....but I've had the EXACT same results with my 375 Ultramag.....338 win.....350 rem.....

That's hunting

There is no "hammer of thor" that will drop every animal, right NOW. Some will walk, some will run, and some wil drop, regardless of which shape of case you choose to propel the bullet towards it.

I love my .44 for where I hunt.....and the terrain is very similar to the OP's (I'm up in the islands, Go-Home, etc...thick bush, swales, small lakes, lots of granite). I like the power, the recoil, the fast follow up shots for multiple animals. I like that I can eat right up to the hole, I like that ammo is cheap, I like that I can load it up to max, down to .22 levels, or with creative use of a gas check and some #7 shot I can quietly take grouse. I like that the rifle is very small and light (Almost identical to a 10/22), doesn't hang up on every branch, points like lightning, and...oh yeah....kills stuff I want to eat.

My .02, and worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[Gatehouse]

Funny, I've shot a few head of game with .375's. (Both H&H and the NEW KING, the .375 Ruger)

Some of them dropped, some of them ran.

Some big animals dropped, some small animals ran and vice versa.

I've dropped bear on the spot with a .223 and had some run with a .300

I've dropped moose on the spot with a 7RM and had them run with a .338

All with similar shot placement!

 

[Northman999]

Wrong Way and Gatehouse have obviously had the same experiences I have.

I've seen black bears hit in the boiler with a .270 and .308 collapse on the spot and never move, and I've seen them shot perfectly well in the boiler with a 300 grain silvertip from a 375H&H, turn and run full out 100 yards.

One shot kills definitely don't always look Hollywood, and if anyone expects it, they'll be dissapointed.

 

[guess_kto]

.444 is awesome cartridge if you look closely. It will outperform 45-70 and 30-06 at 100 yards.

 

[captonion]

.444 is awesome cartridge if you look closely. It will outperform 45-70 and 30-06 at 100 yards.

It is so. For those who don't reload, the 444 betters 45-70 factory loads.

 

[bcsteve]

It is so. For those who don't reload, the 444 betters 45-70 factory loads.

Like I mentionned earlier, Hornady has a Superformance load with a 265gr FPIL at 2400fps, that's nothing to sneeze at.

 

[pastway]

Good to know. Lots of 444's seem to get loaded with pistol bullets. If I wasn't a handloader I might be interested in a .444 over a 45/70. Or a .450 Marlin, I guess.

Obviously, for hunting, it is not wise to load pistol bullets in a 444, if you are thinking the hollow points or some lighter projectiles than 240 gr. But someone over on the Marlin forum pretty well debunked the "pistol bullet" myth a while ago with some pretty extensive testing on the standard 240 gr flat nosed projectiles you get from Remington. They are exactly the same as the ones you get in the 444 factory loads, based on his ballistic testing and cutting them apart, weighing, measuring, etc.

I've shot moose, several deer and several black bears with the 444 Marlin 240 gr Remington factory "pistol bullet" loads, with no problems at all. Sometimes you could drop golf balls in the exit holes. I also handload now, using the Hornady 265 gr, and the Ranch Dog molds for 265 gr and 300 gr leads. But truthfully, most of the animals I've shot were in the years before I started handloading for the 444, and with the Remington "pistol bullets". I can say from my experience, they don't fly apart in flight, nor do they all go to pieces on impact, nor fragment at the hide, or any of the other myths you sometimes hear. They penetrate deep leaving big holes, and normally exit leaving a bigger hole.

As for the 44 mag with the Remington "pistol bullets", the one bear I shot with it was a one shot kill. Never tried it on moose. For the elusive 3-day moose season here in NB, I'd go with something with a little more range.

 

[canadaman30]

OK...here you go.


If you A: Don't handload, B: Can't stalk, and C: Can't shoot and feel you need more power to compenstae: Get a .450 Marlin. Factory loads FAR exceed the 45/70 as only modern firearms are chambered in it so they can.

That is all.

I guess the same go's for anyone using 338 mags and up cause they can't stalk and can't shoot...get off the pipe

 

[t-star]

you generally hunt with WHATEVER'S IN YOUR HANDS at the moment- an "open country " moose takes a far different set of skills than your average swamp donkey; i've seen them across a valley in the high country, and you'd SWEAR they either saw you or heard you, b/c they look straight at you , knowing full well they were out of range of your average 30 caliber- and if you try to stalk closer, they just quietly move farther away, or disappear altogether- that's WHY you want a 338 or something with a big bullet and lots of legs-

 

[broadhead67]

don't have to swear on it , your dead right. average hearing of a moose is 2+ miles with those radar ears, a big bull uses his antlers as gigantic hearing aids(like holding your hands up to your ears to direct the sound into them)scientists figure up to 20% increase when using their antlers.confusion occurs when some people don't realize there is roadside moose that will dam near eat grass out of your hands and alpine moose that have busted myself and a close bud from so far away it was just dishartning.
derail post highjack: my vote is for 45/70 more for the fact that I have seen what my 405 gr handloads can do than any other reason.

you generally hunt with WHATEVER'S IN YOUR HANDS at the moment- an "open country " moose takes a far different set of skills than your average swamp donkey; i've seen them across a valley in the high country, and you'd SWEAR they either saw you or heard you, b/c they look straight at you , knowing full well they were out of range of your average 30 caliber- and if you try to stalk closer, they just quietly move farther away, or disappear altogether- that's WHY you want a 338 or something with a big bullet and lots of legs-

 

[senior]

Like I mentionned earlier, Hornady has a Superformance load with a 265gr FPIL at 2400fps, that's nothing to sneeze at.

As posted above, for those that reload & for the right gun you can easily exceed even Horn Superformance load. At a much cheaper price I bet!

 

[Wrong Way]

I guess the same go's for anyone using 338 mags and up cause they can't stalk and can't shoot...get off the pipe

We are talking about 100 yard cartidges here, but let me school you anyway.....
The FACT is that if you CAN stalk AND shoot, you don't need the magnums....the ONLY advantage a magnum offers is at extended ranges, period. A 338 Ultramag at 100 yards will not perform ANY better than a 338 federal on game....same can be said for the 300 mags compared to the .308 at 100 yards....hell out to 3-400 the *on game* performance is exactly the same. The same bullet travelling at 2400 FPS vs. 3400 FPS is going to react the same way. Unless you are shooting 500+, the magnums offer no real advantage, but a bunch of downsides (cost, recoil, etc. etc.)

I've posted my kill list...all taken with a PISTOL cartridge. Let's see yours

 

[RememberTheSomme]

I guess the same go's for anyone using 338 mags and up cause they can't stalk and can't shoot...get off the pipe

Agreed X2.
One Gun Legend mini series about to be aired on CBC this evening at..............

 

[bcsteve]

We are talking about 100 yard cartidges here, but let me school you anyway.....
The FACT is that if you CAN stalk AND shoot, you don't need the magnums....the ONLY advantage a magnum offers is at extended ranges, period. A 338 Ultramag at 100 yards will not perform ANY better than a 338 federal on game....same can be said for the 300 mags compared to the .308 at 100 yards....hell out to 3-400 the *on game* performance is exactly the same. The same bullet travelling at 2400 FPS vs. 3400 FPS is going to react the same way. Unless you are shooting 500+, the magnums offer no real advantage, but a bunch of downsides (cost, recoil, etc. etc.)

I've posted my kill list...all taken with a PISTOL cartridge. Let's see yours

I'll have to disagree with some of your post. Bullets will perform differently at 2400fps and 3400fps. A bullet that would hold together and expand to a nice mushroom at 2400fps may come apart in pieces at 3400fps. This could either produce a dramatic kill as the vitals are torn to shreds or create a superficial wound.

 

[canadaman30]

We are talking about 100 yard cartidges here, but let me school you anyway.....
The FACT is that if you CAN stalk AND shoot, you don't need the magnums

I guess I can't stalk and I can't shoot, cause I use a 450 and a 338mag. Maybe you could teach us all here how to accomplish these tasks......

 

[Wrong Way]

I'll have to disagree with some of your post. Bullets will perform differently at 2400fps and 3400fps. A bullet that would hold together and expand to a nice mushroom at 2400fps may come apart in pieces at 3400fps. This could either produce a dramatic kill as the vitals are torn to shreds or create a superficial wound.

Let me clarify....will a moose hit with a bullet at 2400 be any less dead than with a bullet at 3400? No. What I meant is that the end result will be the same....there is no practical advantage whatsoever to hitting the moose with a bullet travelling 1000 FPS faster.

Where the magnum's extra speed DOES come into play is at vastly extended ranges....the extra oomph leaving the barrel means that the bullet will be travelling fast enough to do the job at 700 where the non magnum won't.....but at ranges under 400 there is absolutely no reason that ANYONE *needs* a magnum....no reason at all.