Is the 8x57 really that lackluster?

Kinda like the American data on the 6.5 X 55?
There's no way a European cartridge can come close to a 'merican one.
(while the "Star Spangled Banner" is playing in the background; either that or "The Battle Hymn of the Republic")
And I'm American on one side of the family before anyone gets revv'd up:)

These rounds are loaded down in deference to all of the old Mausers floating around North America. The 8x57 is particularly weak due to some old .318 (8x57J) dia. rifles it may fed to. In the early 20th century the diameter of 8x57 bores was increased to .323 diameter(8X57JS). Full power loads with .323 bullets in a .318 bore could get really interesting.
 
:agree:
Most handloading manuals (and American factory ammo) keep the loads real low because of the .318 and .323 bore size issue plus the fact that many of the 8mm are in old rifes that may not be "safe" for modern loads.

They may or may not be right depending on circumstances.

Good rifles with good handloads (with the bullets seated out nice and far that allows for more powder) gives results close to 30-06 levels. They are very good rifles to hunt with.
 
when loaded to the same pressure with the same bullet weight, the 8x57 is around 50fps behind the 30-06.

i have 2 "hunting" loads in 8x57, a 200 gr nosler partition at 2500fps for a scoped brno 21H and the same bullet at 2300fps for other rifles with open sights as i see no need to hotrod older, open-sighted rifles.
 
when loaded to the same pressure with the same bullet weight, the 8x57 is around 50fps behind the 30-06.



and depending on rifles/chambers, the roles could easily be reversed.

the 8x57, when handloaded properly is in the 30-06 class, and with heavier bullets, exceeds the 308win by a bit. And I would NOT feel undergunned if I had a .308 for Moose or Elk with 180gr bullets, or 165gr premiums.

Here is another thought, the 8x57, loaded with the lyman 323471, properly sized is a boolit no moose can stand up to. over 200 gr at 2000fps is deadly bush medicine.
 
I load a 180 grain ballistic tip at 2500 fps from a 20" barreled carbine. Its also pretty accurate with a full length Kar 98k, and obviously faster.

It isn't lackluster on anything.
 
I have shot the Norma 8X57IS and wow. Hotter than the Winchester ammo. As for shooting a .323 dia 8x57 (for example) Winchester ammo in a .318 bore...Well I think that's a myth as well. .005 thou extra, imaging shooting a .313 dia bullet down a .308 bore?

All the same disastrous effect. Boom!

Now saying that, anyone with a 88 rifle should slug their bore to determine if it is .321 or .323 or .318. Do it right or not at all, and be safe.
 
Here's a good article that warns about bore dia.. ht tp://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_53/ai_n20512666/pg_2/

The remaining part of the package was the development of the 7.9x57mm (8x57) cartridge. The smokeless flake powder was developed by the Royal Prussian Powder Factory in Spandau while the jacketed bullet was designed by Prussian Major Bode and refined by Major Rubin in Switzerland. The Germans also drew upon Rubin's rimless case design. The final cartridge featured a .318"-diameter, 227-grain, roundnose, jacketed bullet at a velocity of 2,100 fps.

Plenty Made

Approximately, 1.9 million Gew. 88 rifles and carbines were produced by arsenals like Spandau, Amberg, Danzig and Erfurt plus contract makers such as Ludwig Loewe and Steyr. A remarkable fact is the whole Germany army was rearmed with Gew. 88s in a period of only two years. In WWI, they appeared in the hands of the German, Turkish, Austro-Hungarian and Bulgarian armies and over the decades, spread throughout the world, including the American surplus market. A lively trade also developed in converting the Model 88 into functional and sometimes elegant sporters.

In 1903, the Germans officially adopted the "S" or "spitzer" 154-grain bullet with a diameter of .323". Over the next decade, existing stores of Model 88's were updated and modified for the "S" cartridge. Chamber necks and throats were enlarged. Barrels replaced. Sights replaced. Stripper clip lips were riveted or welded to the rear bridge. The back of the front receiver ring was notched to accept the spitzer round. Since the Mannlicher-type clip was now eliminated, the bottom of the Mannlicher magazine box was capped off and a spring-loaded cartridge retainer was installed in the left side of the receiver magazine well. The rifles and carbines adopted for the "S" cartridge were stamped "S" on the front receiver ring.

Caution! Check Before Shooting

But if you are a shooter, be cautious! Even though a Model 88 rifle or carbine may be stamped with an "S", it does not mean it is safe to fire with modern .323" ammunition! The barrel's groove diameter may be .318", .321" or .323". The 1891 Amberg Model 88 pictured in this article arrived from Turkey. It has all the features of an "S" converted rifle, but the barrel has a groove diameter of .318", the original "J" bore dimension. Firing vintage, 227-grain SR RWS "J" bore ammunition in the Amberg generates 3-shot, 100-yard groups of 1 3/4" to 2 1/4" at 2,213 fps. Not bad for an old warhorse!

So slug your barrel, match your bullet to the bore, and keep your velocity down to 2,200 fps or less. Cast bullets are a natural for the Gew. 88. Just remember surplus Gew. 88's are now 119-years old and were Germany's first smokeless powder arms. Treat them gently.

My hat's off to the Spandau Commission. In approximately one year, it produced not only an attractive, accurate and thoroughly modern military rifle but the smokeless cartridge Germany staked its fate on for the next 57 years. The Gew. 88 and the 7.9x57 are a remarkable pair.

FURTHER READING GERMAN MILITARY RIFLES AND MACHINE PISTOLS 187t-1945
 
No Problems with power. I prefer 170gr, they seem to give better groups at the 200+ ranges, but no issues at all with 196gr for targets less than 200 with open sights. 196gr is good for moose, but imo, 170gr is a more versatile bullet that won't blow the smaller game in half.

Still playing with home loads, I can make them hotter with no pressure signs but the sweet spot so far for grouping is with lower pressure. More work yet. Haven't used the crony yet, so no comment on speed.
 
I used to push 200 gr Nosler Partitions just shy of 2700 fps in my M98 WWI small ring action, sporter Mauser. Haven't shot the gun for awhile but I think it was 52 grains of IMR4350 and 3.2" overall length.

RWS, Sellier & Bellot and Norma all have proper loadings for the 8x57mm.
 
I remember reading a history lesson on the 7.9/8x57...

I can't recall the specifics but it made so much sense after reading it that the .318/.323 diameters were fully explained.

wish I would have saved that article.
 
I remember reading a history lesson on the 7.9/8x57...

I can't recall the specifics but it made so much sense after reading it that the .318/.323 diameters were fully explained.

wish I would have saved that article.



There are lots of explanations of this in most manuals, as well as all over the internet. In summery: very old rifles may be .318, less than very old rifles are .323



It takes five minutes to slug a barrel when in doubt.
 
So would a Yugo M48 Mauser be capable of handling the hotter loads? (assuming its in great functioning shape)

Yes indeed. In fact, they were meant to fire them.

The Yugo intermediate Mauser actions also have a "safety breech" which is essentially an extra safety feature to enclose the case head of the cartridge better.

YugoIntermediateMauserSafetyBreech.jpg


Source: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?121870-M48-Barrel-Question


BTW, there is nothing "lackluster" about 7.92x57mm rounds loaded to European specifications.

It is the anemic American factory loads that leave much to be desired in terms of power.
 
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Powder technology has a great deal to do with things.

When the Germans introduced the JS loading in 1904, it clocked 2881 ft/sec with a 154-grain bullet, this from a 29.13-inch barrel: 2839 ft/lbs ME. This was accomplished at 17.5 Imperial Long Tons of pressure: 39,200 PSI (figures from TEXT BOOK OF SMALL ARMS - 1909).

American powder technology could NOT approach this at that time. The US went to a longer casing with much more powder capacity and, with their inferior powder technology, were able only to come up with a Service load of 2700 ft/sec with a 150 for the .30-'06..... 2428 ft/lbs ME at a nominal 50,000 PSI pressure. The 8mm had 17% MORE power than the '06 and did it at only 79% of the pressure...... in a shorter case.

American powder technology only improved a great deal AFTER WWI, when they had not just Hudson Maxim working for them (the man who developed the original MR powders now the IMR powders) but also the examples of German powder technology. Remember, the .50 Browning was a complete dud until the Yanks reloaded it with powder from pulled-down TuF rounds, saw the massive difference...... and copied the German powder.

The Americans led the world for many years in arms technology and especially in production (can you think of anyone else who could have turned out 6 million Garands, 6 million Carbines, a million Tommies and Gawd-alone-knows-what-else in just 4 years). They just don't want to admit that even they had to START somewhere..... and they did. Everyone has to start somewhere. They started late and caught up fast; should be enough glory in that, but the propaganda mills are still running and nobody seems to know where the plug might be.

Canada's story is just the opposite: started early, peaked early.... and threw it all away for pure POLITICAL "reasons". Nothing to be proud of there..... except for the early, and very real, accomplishments, right from Fessenden to the ROSS to the Grizzly to the Arrow.

But the original 8x57 bested the mighty .30 M1906 by a good bit, in a shorter case, with a heavier bullet, at far less pressure. It's no slouch.
.
 
The 8x57 J was .318" [stylized German I for infantry] followed by the 8x57JS in .323 " bore If the cartridge was for combo guns ie rimmed it was followed by the letter "R"...........................Harold............you won't get many bang-flops ,but it penetrated and killed pretty much everything it was pointed at African game included
 
Talk about politics. German ordnance engineering has always been superb. Trouble is they haven't won a war in 140 years in spite of it. Something about a lack of strategic vision and over statement of their own capabilities and underestimation of their adversaries - especially when the bands get playing and the beer gets flowing. Thankfully the self-destructive urges to march on Paris and Warsaw are done with.
 
I've not researched the ballistic's, not my thing. Picked up a box of Winchester 150 gr 8mm Mauser the other week. Took a professionally sported K-98 out the other day with my daughter; she's 15. Her grandfather gave it to her. She's not shot anything other than .22's & the SKS. OK, she likes the 9mm Tok too.
She's 15 years old, 120 lbs; she shot that 8mm with no flinch what-so-ever. And it's light. The full dress 6.5 was way snuffier to shoot despite the additional weight; Hornady Factory loads.
So...point of the story is... I'm thinking the Factory 8mm loads on this side of the water are pretty sedate.
But then again the M-39 was fine for her too; and she loved the SVT-40 :)
 
BTW, there is nothing "lackluster" about 7.92x57mm rounds loaded to European specifications.

It is the anemic American factory loads that leave much to be desired in terms of power.



I believe this to be true in both 7.92x57mm and 7.62x54R. Do you have a reliable source of European loading specs?

All I find is American loading data, and I can surpass the maximum loads with better results.
 
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