New Comer Question (updated)

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diva

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I am a newcomer in the gun community, and I am interested in collecting antique firearms. I am planning on getting Webley Mk I as my "first gun". This is kinda a noob question, but where can I get them? Is it expensive to shoot those guns? One more question should I convert Webley MkI into firing 45acp since I heard a lot of people are doing it? Since I am a newbie, I am just wondering is there anything I need to be aware of when it comes to antique firearms or any firearms! Is there any economic way of obtaining and shooting antique firearms? Of course any suggestions regarding antique firearms are welcome.
 
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With these guns you'll generally need to reload. Commercial is available, but most antique owners usually end up reloading to doctor their loads to the guns. If you just want to shoot a box or two every so often you'll be ok.

Condition is everything with these guns, since being this old means they can simply be shot and worn out and not easily repaired.

You basically get them anywhere you see them :p I don't see many in gun stores, but private sales are common. Check the EE, there are several good options in there right now. For a starter shooting antique revolver, it'll generally cost you around $1000. A tad less if the caliber isn't ideal or it isn't a desirable design, but way way way more if it's desirable (authentic webleys will go for $1700+++). You can go cheaper, but you really get what you pay for with antiques - the gun can be worn, shot out, not function correctly or have flaws that make the gun unsafe or a pain in the butt to shoot (most common flaws are the cylinder not indexing correctly and shaving the bullet, or if bad, firing the bullet into the side of the barrel).
 
Webley MkI-II in 45 acp pretty much all come from the US, where this was a popular conversion at one point attained by shaving the back of the cylinder so that they could accomadate using moon clips that would hold rimless 45acp brass. Unless you have some machining skills this is generally not a DIY project. It's generally now considered a mortal sin if you do find an unaltered 455 Webley and plan to deface it. Please don't.

It is also generally considered a bad idea to use factory loaded 45 acp for these low pressure proofed frames. You will need to reload. So why not skip the moon clip hassle and just shoot 455, the components are easily obtained and no more hassle than 45 acp.
 
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diva said:
But I am new, so I don't really know where I can find it. :< Is it safe to shop online for antique firearms? As for Winchester Model 1892, what do you guys think of it?
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The EE on here is a good place to start. Online is fine as long as you do your research to guarantee that the seller A) actually has the gun and B) it is the condition described. There are lots of methods for doing this, however you decide to do so should be fine.

I would NOT shave a webley down. It's a BAD idea, and will A) cost money to shave down and B) will cost in value of the gun overall... so a $1900 gun would cost some $100-$200 to shave down, and then lose $200-$300 in value minimum. So basically you buy a 2k gun and after it's in 45acp, it's worth $1500.... so don't do it is what I'm trying to say :p

Just FYI - the winchester 1892 will never be considered an antique legally. As a firearm in general, they're good. I would get an 1894 for general shooting personally, just because they're cheaper and more available.
 
Just FYI - the winchester 1892 will never be considered an antique legally
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I thought arms made before Canada, they are defined as guns made before 1898 are considered antiques. :<
I am confused by wikipedia. :<
3. A rifle manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, whether with a smooth or rifled bore, having a bore diameter of 8.3 mm or greater, measured from land to land in the case of a rifled bore, with the exception of a repeating firearm fed by any type of cartridge magazine. SHOTGUNS 4. A shotgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges. 5. A shotgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than 10, 12, 16, 20, 28 or 410 gauge cartridges. HANDGUNS 6. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging only rim-fire cartridges, other than 22 Calibre Short, 22 Calibre Long or 22 Calibre Long Rifle cartridges. 7. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges.
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So there is no way to purchase and to shoot antique firearms at a low cost?
 
diva said:
Plus I have found an interesting post on the net stating that it is not safe to convert the revolver to fire .45acp. Is it true?
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That's a post by Grant who is also a well respected member on CGN.
If you read it again he did not say it's not safe to covert a revolver to 45 acp but rather exactly what myself and H Wally having been trying to point out...if you shoot 45 acp in an early MK Webley you should down load it to lower pressure levels than factory 45acp, i.e. 13000 psi vs 19000 psi.
 
So there is no way to purchase and to shoot antique firearms at a low cost?
I mean most of the rounds are hard to find and expensive!
 
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diva said:
.....So there is no way to purchase and to shoot antique firearms at a low cost?
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Sure there is. Keep your eyes open. Good buys come along. Altered firearms with little collector value can be quite inexpensive, and still be good shooters.
Unless the cartridge cases are exotic, once you have a supply of brass loading the cartridges is no more expensive than preparing any other ammunition.
 
diva said:
So there is no way to purchase and to shoot antique firearms at a low cost?
I mean most the rounds are hard to find and expensive!
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You can buy factory Fiocchi 455 ammo for around $60 for a box of 50, it's sporadically available. Or you can reload, it cost me around $7 to reload a box of 50 rounds. New Hornady brass is easily available and not that expensive. It should be similar cost for 45acp.

As far a purchasing a large calibre antique handgun at low cost, not so much unless it's a complete piece of junk and trust me there is a geat deal of junk out there that sells for way too much. If your serious about this do a lot more reading and research before you even think about spending a dime.
 
Buying an antique Webley.

Set aside 2gs, cash, in your bank account.

Wait for a good, shootable, shaved-to-.45 ACP in the '60s Webley MK II or III to show up in the EE.

Purchase it. $2000?

Buy .45ACP brass (Marstar has some, others too, likely) or pick it up at the club. $30?

Buy some bulk lead bullets. $100

Buy some primers (appropriate to the brass you bought, if you bought once-fired). $20?

Buy some Unique or similar powder. $30?

Buy an inexpensive Lee press and Lee dies and a scale. $200?

Moon clips and the flipping tool because they hurt to pull the bullets out with your fingers. $20?

I am sure I didn't buy enough powder or primers for the bullets, but I am having fun at the moment.

Cheap and antiques do not go well together, it's like using "liberal" and "informed" in the same sentence. If you want to shoot cheap and easy grab yourself a nice .357/.38 S&W or Ruger used and a range membership... even if you have to get your RPAL you'll still be shooting sooner and cheaper if you have a "normal" level of disposable income.

Edit: Looking at this, it really isn't that different price-wise to look for one in the original rarer calibres these come in. So go ahead and get a rimmed one if you'ld rather. Brass should last forever at the low pressures encountered, anyway.
 
diva said:
I thought arms made before Canada, they are defined as guns made before 1898 are considered antiques. :<
I am confused by wikipedia. :<

So there is no way to purchase and to shoot antique firearms at a low cost?
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For the first - there is info in this section on how to understand antique laws. I get the impression you're an english as a second language speaker - if you mentioned your first language we could probably find someone to explain it.

For the second - there is no way to buy a cheap antique that is easy to shoot. It's either expensive to buy and easier to shoot or cheap to buy but impossible to shoot.



diva said:
So there is no way to purchase and to shoot antique firearms at a low cost?
I mean most the rounds are hard to find and expensive!
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In a word - No. Remember, they haven't made these guns for minimum 113 years, so everything to do with them is rare and hard to find, and as a result, expensive.

Just keep in mind, $60/50rds is about as cheap as you see with antiques. Brass for some of them costs $4-$8/ empty brass case...
 
you first gun should be a rifle a .22lr comes to mind

as looking at this thread it seems you dant have a license witch you need for ammo

just get a rifle that ammo is easy to get and cheap i dont think antique's are for you right now
 
I dunno.

This person has the odour of either being a completely clueless kid, or someone trying to come across as same, on a fishing trip for information that won't serve the firearms community in any beneficial way.

Pretty much only interested in stuff that is illegal or borderline same. And cheap.
Nothing about Antique Firearms is gonna be cheap.

In short, the smell is rat-like.

FWIW, I don't get ESL out of this ones posts. I get a feel of purposely dumbed down.

Meh. Just me? Or not? Sorry. Has the smell of a grad student or a reporter on a fishing trip.

Do your PAL course, get a PAL. Then shop for firearms you can legally own. Howzat. Gonna need the PAL to buy ammo anyway. (Segue to the next questions about how to bypass THAT process, eh?)

Cheapest easiest way to own firearms is to do it legally, with a PAL (Or even better, do your RPAL!)

Cheers
Trev
 
diva said:
So there is no way to purchase and to shoot antique firearms at a low cost?
I mean most the rounds are hard to find and expensive!
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There is nothing cheap about antiques..... Some are more cost effective to shoot than others but you'll be hard pressed to get into a shootable Webley with reloading components and ammo for less than $2000.

Like TrevJ said, you need a PAL anyways for ammo so a goot starter gun would be a 22 lr. Antiques are not for beginners (or those trying to circumvent the law)
 
diva said:
I thought arms made before Canada, they are defined as guns made before 1898 are considered antiques. :<
I am confused by wikipedia. :<

So there is no way to purchase and to shoot antique firearms at a low cost?
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It really isn't a cheap hobby. A good, solid antique is going to cost close to 2K. Then you have to reload light loads for it in pressures similar to the original black powder cartridges the gun was made for.
 
trevj said:
I dunno.

This person has the odour of either being a completely clueless kid, or someone trying to come across as same, on a fishing trip for information that won't serve the firearms community in any beneficial way.

Pretty much only interested in stuff that is illegal or borderline same. And cheap.
Nothing about Antique Firearms is gonna be cheap.

In short, the smell is rat-like.

FWIW, I don't get ESL out of this ones posts. I get a feel of purposely dumbed down.

Meh. Just me? Or not? Sorry. Has the smell of a grad student or a reporter on a fishing trip.

Do your PAL course, get a PAL. Then shop for firearms you can legally own. Howzat. Gonna need the PAL to buy ammo anyway. (Segue to the next questions about how to bypass THAT process, eh?)

Cheapest easiest way to own firearms is to do it legally, with a PAL (Or even better, do your RPAL!)

Cheers
Trev
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Bingo. I was thinking Wendy. Diva is a female word.

It does look like a fishing expedition doesn't it?
 
cantom said:
Bingo. I was thinking Wendy. Diva is a female word.

It does look like a fishing expedition doesn't it?
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X-2
There is no cheap or easy way into antiques and realoading requires some knowledge and skill stick to what you can buy with a PAL for your first gun .
 
Assuming this is a legitimate question.
A "shaved Webley" can use .45Auto Rim brass loaded to .455 velocities
The Mk1 Webley was designed in the black Powder era, so shooting .45ACP through it is INSANE
Mk1 webleys are harder to find than a Mk5 or a Mk6
You will have to reload if you plan to shoot this a lot.
That means
reloading press, dies, brass, powder scale, Powder measure. Saying that, the same components other than the reloading dies can be used for other calibres.
 
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