Chinese clean up at Military/Police Sniper World Cup 2011

The guys who won it should be proud. They will also know that they were the best in that competition on those particular days. Remembering of course that the guys that get to go are often available and from units and organizations that have the money to send them. There is no big tournament in most countries to have a shoot off and determine who will go. Lots of guys will be deployed, on training rotations, tied up instructing etc. Very few organizations have the liberty of allowing their best operators come off the line and train and prepare for the competition circuit. Five events is a little low to determine the "best" sniper in the world. Two weeks or even a full month of competition with events replicating a larger variety of real world scenarios would be more appropriate.

The people who will be debating the most of who is the best will probably be the ones that weren't even there.
 
Not sure why everyone needs to make excuses. As with any competition, not everyone in the world was there. Of the folks that were there the Chinese teams proved to be consistently better. Why is there so much resistance to the fact that China produces world class athletes? They are a large country, they have a big population that has many talented people, and they have great training programs. Maybe the rest of the SWAT teams should start looking to China for some expertise instead of assuming this was a fluke?
 
Here's a post from someone who shot the event. It's an interesting read.

TRGon 03 Jun 2011 at 10:04 am link comment

Hello to All,

I have just returned from Budapest, Hungary where I participated in the 2011 Police and Military Sniper World Cup. It was my first such competition and I placed in the top third among 107 competitors from Europe and Asia. You all can read about the structure of the competition (types of exercises, location, etc) on the Web so I won’t go into that. What I will go into was the rampant cheating on the part of the Chinese military and police teams and the complicity of the event organizers and judges. This isn’t sour grapes because I was nowhere near the top of the leader board and the cheating did not effect my individual scores or final placement. What it did effect was the integrity of the competition and the hard work and excellent performances of the teams, specifically from the Czech Republic.

Here are some samples:

During a night shoot exercise during a preparatory display of the targets several shooters jumped the gun and shot on their targets – a classic display of a lack of concentration and trigger control…it happens. Initially the on-field judges asked the shooters to stand away from the line so that they could be identified and given a Zero score for the exercise. No one stood up. Competitors in that area of the line then pointed to several shooters from China’s police team, as well as members from other teams, as the shooters. The judges then cleared the line and went down range to check targets. As I watched through my spotting scope (the range was a little over 100m) I saw which targets had been shot. Most had been shot by Chinese shooters. When the judges returned they had a discussion. They then announced that the range staff had “made a mistake” and that the exercise would be re-shot. Complaints where shouted from all who did not shoot and another meeting was called. It was then announced that the exercise would be cancelled and another would be held in its place.The end result was that Chinese shooters who should have received zero scores for their error were not penalized at all.

A day exercise involved shooting 400+m targets from positions of cover behind a barricade. This was a team event involving two shooters with 3 shots each. After the event we moved up to the 215m line to shoot another exercise on another, smaller value target. As we moved the judges moved forward and marked, apparently unbeknownst to the Chinese, the hit/misses on the previously shot high value targets. We then shot the closer exercise and went forward to look. It turned out that the high value targets shot by the Chinese competitors had both marked and unmarked holes on them. It would have been impossible to any professional sniper to have mistaken the targets. The Chinese double shot them to falsely get as many points as possible.

On the last day of the competition the top two position were held by snipers from China and the Czech Republic. The point spread was very close. After an exercise one of the judges approached the Czech shooter and told him he would be assessed a 25 point penalty. He asked why and she replied by telling him she was very sorry but had been instructed to do so by the competition organizers. She could/would not tell him the technical reason for the penalty. The Chinese shooter ended up winning the competition by a margin of less than 25 points.

During the competition word soon spread about the cheating by the Chinese teams and the favoritism shown to them by the event organizers. The tone of the competition soon turned from one of comradeship and sportsmanship to one of frustration. At the awards ceremony no one but the Chinese shooters and their entourage applauded when the winner was announced. After the awards ceremony all Chinese participants left the venue like thieves in the night for what I assume was a reception elsewhere.

I later learned from event staff (who were also disgusted by what they were ordered what to see and what not to see) the following facts: the Chinese government was the principal sponsor of the event; the Chinese teams had been in Hungary for the previous two months, had been given the exercises beforehand (everyone else learned about the exercises at a briefing held the night before the first day of competition), and had each sent several thousand rounds down range before the start of the event.

That’s it. Draw your own conclusions. If you are as outraged as I am – and again, I stress that I had no chance of winning (this time!) and the cheating did not effect me personally – please pass this information along. Better yet, check my claims out for yourselves. I’ve purposely left names out but you can see the results for yourselves on-line. This could have been a great competition but it ended up being a farce. I think the only was to solve this problem is to bring all of this to light. When this event is discredited, as I think it should be, perhaps competitors will boycott it until changes are made the the playing field is leveled.

The true winners of this event were robbed. The competitor from the Czech Republic who came in second is, in my opinion, the greatest competing sniper in the world and a good guy to boot.


No way to verify this and for all I know it could be mud slinging who knows? Having professional "display" teams is pretty common. A few guys are lucky enough to basically be full time professional shooters who train for these types of events full time. They learn the "tricks" of competition that while they may not be tactically sound they shave seconds off your time and increase your score. Other guys come in right out of the field work very methodically and smartly getting quality hits, but it is not always reflected in a high score. Does it mean they are not good snipers? Hell no, they just may not be good competitors. A few guys are good enough to meld both into one and those are truly top notch snipers, watching them work is excellent to see.
 
Speculation, but if the e-mail Cappy sited is true, it proves one thing is for sure.

Don't mess with the Chinese. It doesn't matter how skilled you are. They'll just buy you out.

On a lighter note, it kind of reminds me of a certain interservice shooting competition I was in a few years ago between LEO, Military, and CorCan teams where a certain, unnamed reg. force infantry team were the only competitors to get DQ'd.

Unsubstantiated rumour had it as either for having non-standard optics on their service rifles, unsafe storage of their weapons, or for transporting government owned weapons in personal vehicles.

It was quite the sight to see Reserve Service Battalion finish ahead of Reg. Force Infantry - but it was all in good fun (and no one got hurt).
 
Ill say it.Told you so.Gaming and other worse things run rampant in the Asian teams where you must save face by winning at all cost.
I saw it in Australia last may and I saw it at Bisley last summer,although that was Arab team that got caught by Gunnerlove and myself cheating to win.
It definitely leaves a black eye on the competition and the organizers when written rules are not enforced and cheaters disciplined.
 
I have no doubt what Cappy said is true actually I find it disheartening that event organizers would allow themselve to become nothing more than bargian basement prostitutes
 
Once the reputation of an event is tarnished; it won't be so easy to bring it back. Dirty tricks in competition, ruine many an event!! All the best to the Czech shooter!!! To heck with the cheaters!!!
 
I believe the email to be an accurate description. Don't underestimate "losing face" in asian culture, especially China.

I am remembering the Olympics; from the lip-synching little girl that was more photogenic than the actual singer to the CG generated televised firework displays, it was all about "face".
 
Hey, this happens in Canada as well:

At CFSAC back in the late 90's a non-english speaking group was found using match .223ammo and was going to be disqualified until the CDS (with a heavy accent) overruled and stated:

"You just want to use the rules to win..." and basically told us to F**k off.

Then the next year, the PPCLI team was almost DQ'd entirely by this same General because our team was late to a squading due to a "last minute" change from the organizers... gain, due to an insitance from said General.

If it wasn't from heavy pressure at the Team Captains meeting (chaired by Kieth Cunningham - MilCun) we would have been gone.
 
In Asia, buying, cheating, bribing or using any other means to win is pretty much norm.. in the 7 1/2 years I lived there I saw it lots first hand..someone else here said it true..it's all about face.. in one comp I was in in China, the entire event was cancelled (so I was told) after two days (one to go) because this white boy was winning it and the Chinese didn't want to lose face... my wife is Chinese so when I say this it has bugger all to due with race.. Asia countries, particularly China, are the most corupt places on earth...
 
I can remember several year ago, a Canuck went to the US to participated in the Ranger course, he come out first of the class(top candate), this say Alot about the Honerable system.
 
Well, this is the latest post on the comment section:

What TRG saying is plausible but it isn’t credible. Second of all, there are many holes in what TRG is saying about the competition. This does not necessarily mean that it is not true as most people have trouble recalling events accurately.

- The argument about Czech missing out by 25 points. Even if we put that in there, Xu Bo of china would’ve still won. Or did somehow Chinese competitors got an extra 25 points!?

“Xu Bo of China won the police individual event with 956 points, the highest score in the entire competition. China’s Qi Baosong came second with 928 points, while Josef Prochazka of the Czech Republic placed third on 902 points.”

Alternatively, there is this

“In the military individual category, Hu Xiang of China won with a score of 907 points. The Czech Republic’s Petr Marek scored 891 points to come second while fellow Czech Richard Maska came third on 853 points.”

But given the circumstances, China would’ve still bagged the gold in the police category regardless.

Anyway, discussion of plausible events can go on forever, so lets take a look at the facts. This is a statement from this same competition last year.

“The Chinese team first took part in the 2007 sniper’s world cup and has competed every year since. In their first two years they failed to make the the shortlist for the finals and came in 10th out of 23 in 2009, but this Year they took 3 Golds, 2 Silvers, 3 Bronzes for an overall finish of 3rd place. The 3 Golds came went to PLA team, and the 2 Silvers and 3 Bronzes went to the People’s Armed Police team. “

Surely, by looking at those historical figures, China went in losing but they caught up and they took 3 golds, 2 silvers and 3 bronze last year! It is no miracle that they are able to take 4/5 events this year. This is not saying the Chinese participants may not have gotten an unfair advantage but by reviewing the facts and the Chinese improvements since 2007, it indicates they have the competitive capacity to dominate this competition.
 
Blah, blah. How many of the comments are from shooters that have competed in world competition? Yah Canada is great shooters, wish it was a lot better! Lots of questionable deals around the world, if you are there and don't like it then talk to the match committee. Get over it or speak up.
 
Here's a post from someone who shot the event. It's an interesting read.

TRGon 03 Jun 2011 at 10:04 am link comment

Hello to All,

I have just returned from Budapest, Hungary where I participated in the 2011 Police and Military Sniper World Cup. It was my first such competition and I placed in the top third among 107 competitors from Europe and Asia. You all can read about the structure of the competition (types of exercises, location, etc) on the Web so I won’t go into that. What I will go into was the rampant cheating on the part of the Chinese military and police teams and the complicity of the event organizers and judges. This isn’t sour grapes because I was nowhere near the top of the leader board and the cheating did not effect my individual scores or final placement. What it did effect was the integrity of the competition and the hard work and excellent performances of the teams, specifically from the Czech Republic.

Here are some samples:

During a night shoot exercise during a preparatory display of the targets several shooters jumped the gun and shot on their targets – a classic display of a lack of concentration and trigger control…it happens. Initially the on-field judges asked the shooters to stand away from the line so that they could be identified and given a Zero score for the exercise. No one stood up. Competitors in that area of the line then pointed to several shooters from China’s police team, as well as members from other teams, as the shooters. The judges then cleared the line and went down range to check targets. As I watched through my spotting scope (the range was a little over 100m) I saw which targets had been shot. Most had been shot by Chinese shooters. When the judges returned they had a discussion. They then announced that the range staff had “made a mistake” and that the exercise would be re-shot. Complaints where shouted from all who did not shoot and another meeting was called. It was then announced that the exercise would be cancelled and another would be held in its place.The end result was that Chinese shooters who should have received zero scores for their error were not penalized at all.

A day exercise involved shooting 400+m targets from positions of cover behind a barricade. This was a team event involving two shooters with 3 shots each. After the event we moved up to the 215m line to shoot another exercise on another, smaller value target. As we moved the judges moved forward and marked, apparently unbeknownst to the Chinese, the hit/misses on the previously shot high value targets. We then shot the closer exercise and went forward to look. It turned out that the high value targets shot by the Chinese competitors had both marked and unmarked holes on them. It would have been impossible to any professional sniper to have mistaken the targets. The Chinese double shot them to falsely get as many points as possible.

On the last day of the competition the top two position were held by snipers from China and the Czech Republic. The point spread was very close. After an exercise one of the judges approached the Czech shooter and told him he would be assessed a 25 point penalty. He asked why and she replied by telling him she was very sorry but had been instructed to do so by the competition organizers. She could/would not tell him the technical reason for the penalty. The Chinese shooter ended up winning the competition by a margin of less than 25 points.

During the competition word soon spread about the cheating by the Chinese teams and the favoritism shown to them by the event organizers. The tone of the competition soon turned from one of comradeship and sportsmanship to one of frustration. At the awards ceremony no one but the Chinese shooters and their entourage applauded when the winner was announced. After the awards ceremony all Chinese participants left the venue like thieves in the night for what I assume was a reception elsewhere.

I later learned from event staff (who were also disgusted by what they were ordered what to see and what not to see) the following facts: the Chinese government was the principal sponsor of the event; the Chinese teams had been in Hungary for the previous two months, had been given the exercises beforehand (everyone else learned about the exercises at a briefing held the night before the first day of competition), and had each sent several thousand rounds down range before the start of the event.

That’s it. Draw your own conclusions. If you are as outraged as I am – and again, I stress that I had no chance of winning (this time!) and the cheating did not effect me personally – please pass this information along. Better yet, check my claims out for yourselves. I’ve purposely left names out but you can see the results for yourselves on-line. This could have been a great competition but it ended up being a farce. I think the only was to solve this problem is to bring all of this to light. When this event is discredited, as I think it should be, perhaps competitors will boycott it until changes are made the the playing field is leveled.

The true winners of this event were robbed. The competitor from the Czech Republic who came in second is, in my opinion, the greatest competing sniper in the world and a good guy to boot.


No way to verify this and for all I know it could be mud slinging who knows? Having professional "display" teams is pretty common. A few guys are lucky enough to basically be full time professional shooters who train for these types of events full time. They learn the "tricks" of competition that while they may not be tactically sound they shave seconds off your time and increase your score. Other guys come in right out of the field work very methodically and smartly getting quality hits, but it is not always reflected in a high score. Does it mean they are not good snipers? Hell no, they just may not be good competitors. A few guys are good enough to meld both into one and those are truly top notch snipers, watching them work is excellent to see.

Not surprising. The Economist and others have reported on the widespread problem of false academic credentials and exam cheating in China.

You win, you gain face, money, respect. You lose, you are just a loser.

How you "win" doesn't matter. Even if you don't win; as long as you are seen to win.

Of course the organizers of the competition are as much to blame as anyone else.

Get used to it folks. This is the new international business model. Hard to believe there was anything worse than the existing one, but there is.
 
I have seen cheating like shooting an extra round in a second string while using the same target to compensate a miss/no shoot from the first one...

:(

Is this the same kind of cheating we are talking about here?


Cheers.

I've seen competitors caught on video doing the same thing and get a second shoot instead of a DQ depending upon ... things .
 
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