angryeyebrows
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Oscar Mike
The mags don't make it a superior platform...the quality and reliability does.
Swiss Arms or XCR-L?
- Thread starter xBrokenswordx
- Start date
The mags don't make it a superior platform...the quality and reliability does.
Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
The cheekpiece is the perfect height with my Classic Green and ACOG combo.
If you don't want the ability to run 10 round LAR-15 mags (due to Canadian law) there is no reason to purchase such a lower. The Swiss Arms mags work very well and I personally like the convenience of simply snapping together several mags.
If there were no mag restrictions, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Pointless Canadian mag restrictions have created a niche market and demand for military-style rifles/carbines that can run run 10 round magazines.
Mauser GDog
CGN frequent flyer
That is something to consider.
- Location
- inside a huge cloud of MOSQUITOS
I am running a TA31F on a Larue quick throw mount and I also find that the cheek piece works really well.
I'm not sure if my cheekpiece is a real one or not but it seems to back itself off after a few rounds and I have to squeeze it back down. Other than that it's a good setup.
- Location
- Montréal, Québec
Get the XCR. You'll save money which you can spend on a 7.62x39mm conversion so you can fire cheap surplus ammo in it.
Ar180shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Ottawa, ON
Mine is one of the Chicom ones and it does that too. I'll probably look into getting a real one, and may be doing a review on both of them.
Oh, and nice choice on the optic/mount combo. I'm running the exact same one, my TA31F has the green reticule.
- Location
- inside a huge cloud of MOSQUITOS
Look forward to seeing that review.
To the OP: The Swiss is a great rifle, yes it's expensive, but you wouldn't be disappointed. I also own a RA rifle and it is okay but seems cheaply made compared to the Swiss. Put good glass on it and go have fun.
To the OP: The Swiss is a great rifle, yes it's expensive, but you wouldn't be disappointed. I also own a RA rifle and it is okay but seems cheaply made compared to the Swiss. Put good glass on it and go have fun.
Starscream
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
@op: I'd personally go for the XCR; if I'm marching to war the SAN may look ###y but I'd be reaching for a C7 then if I am marching to war....well actually I'd be reaching for the enlistment forms first but you get the idea.
But as always; buy what YOU feel you'll enjoy shooting more. You're not buying a gun for the rest of us (although you're always welcome to.
)
But as always; buy what YOU feel you'll enjoy shooting more. You're not buying a gun for the rest of us (although you're always welcome to.
)
Personally, I prefer my SAN but it's still fun to shoot my buddys XCR from time to time. A lot of pros and cons have already been mentioned, but a couple I've noticed from personal experience are:
-I prefer the Swiss Mags. Its entirely personal preference, but I like the fact that there's no guessing if they're seated properly. But you're stuck at 5 instead of a possible 10 rounds.
-Swiss diopters are excellent. The basic irons on the XCR are alright.
-Swiss is extremly simple to maintain and reliable, I have yet to have any FTF, FTE or other problems. As opposed to toying with the gas pressure settings on the XCR (granted, most of the problems I experienced occured after caliber changes and during a supposed 'break-in' period).
-The Swiss' non-floated barrel causes some issues when using the bi-pod or the way you grip it. It's still accurate, you just have to keep in mind the way your POI will shift under different conditions.
-The cost of accessories for the Swiss can get a little crazy. Aside from 5/30 mags, cheek risers, NEA lowers and top-rails, everything is made in Switzerland and consequently; pretty pricey. Compare that to the plethora of XCR/AR accesories you can slap on an XCR.
-Caliber changes for the XCR is an interesting feature. Not my cup of tea, but an interesting feature nonetheless.
-Length/weight. The non-restricted Swiss is heavier and longer (with the stock folded out) than the XCR.
If you'd like to handle and perhaps shoot both in the Calgary area send me a PM.
-I prefer the Swiss Mags. Its entirely personal preference, but I like the fact that there's no guessing if they're seated properly. But you're stuck at 5 instead of a possible 10 rounds.
-Swiss diopters are excellent. The basic irons on the XCR are alright.
-Swiss is extremly simple to maintain and reliable, I have yet to have any FTF, FTE or other problems. As opposed to toying with the gas pressure settings on the XCR (granted, most of the problems I experienced occured after caliber changes and during a supposed 'break-in' period).
-The Swiss' non-floated barrel causes some issues when using the bi-pod or the way you grip it. It's still accurate, you just have to keep in mind the way your POI will shift under different conditions.
-The cost of accessories for the Swiss can get a little crazy. Aside from 5/30 mags, cheek risers, NEA lowers and top-rails, everything is made in Switzerland and consequently; pretty pricey. Compare that to the plethora of XCR/AR accesories you can slap on an XCR.
-Caliber changes for the XCR is an interesting feature. Not my cup of tea, but an interesting feature nonetheless.
-Length/weight. The non-restricted Swiss is heavier and longer (with the stock folded out) than the XCR.
If you'd like to handle and perhaps shoot both in the Calgary area send me a PM.
Well I have dabbled with the Swiss arms I have not with the XCR. I just bought a Swiss arms season special. I must say that after shooting my Swiss arms I was able to get a three shot group that was 1" at 100 yards with Iron sights.
If price is no object Go with the Swiss Arms.
If price is no object Go with the Swiss Arms.
- Location
- Calgary, Ab
Lots of great feedback in this thread! I appreciate everyones input. I'll admit I was already leaning towards the swiss arms before I posted this ( I'm a member at the Shooters Edge so I drool over them everytime I'm in there to shoot with my son ). I don't need 10 round mags and I guess I'm hoping that law may be changed with our new majority government. I just want a truly great rifle! I'll end up buying one for my boy when he's he's old enough to use it. Now I just have to decide which colour I want!
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
I'm sure. I run a Mark 4 3.5-10X with 40mm objective. I find the cheekpiece too high and the bare stock too low. Stock fit is so particular to individuals that I'm not surprised that the cheekpiece works for some and not others. I can't imagine my scope is much higher than beltfed's, but to get my face firmly down on the stock (can't help myself - I'm a big bore guy at heart) I need something in between the bare stock and the cheekpiece.
Currently own both and having used them extensively (> 4000 rounds on each), a few thoughts,
- Ergonomics: The XCR has superior ergonomics - left side charging handle, safety is easier to manipulate, magazine button release on the magwell and the finger bolt release at the base of the magwell/ trigger guard intersection. The ergonomics on the PE90 take a little bit of training to master, but work just as well. It just depends which school of though you align yourself to.
- Magazines: The Swiss has by far the better magazine over the AR15 mags. Built like a tank, smooth in operation and virtually jam-free – and has a ‘bullet feeder’ to boot. Additionally, they can be stacked for bonus coolness factor. The 5 round capacity compared to the LAR 10 rounders is a slight negative, but for paper target shooting I don’t suppose it really matters too much. An OEM Swiss magazine is pricey, but used ones or the Dominion Arms mags are competitively priced to the AR mags.
- Magazine changes: On the XCR, they are quick and efficient with minimal drama. On the Swiss you get the bonus swagger of the AK style ‘flick and change’. Magazine seating on the Swiss is more involved (insert at an angle and lock) but more positive and you can tell when it is fully seated. The XCR’s changes are just like an AR – drop free the old mag and slam up the new one.
- Build quality: They both are superbly built and feel like they are carved out of a single block of steel but the Swiss Arms is slightly better with tighter tolerances and certainly has more heft to it.
- Sights: The stock diopter iron sights on the Swiss are just stupendous, although the Midwest Industries flip ups on the XCR are not too shabby either and just as accurate. But compared to the Swiss, they look delicate and fragile and are, comparably, difficult to manipulate. Oh and the Swiss has night sights as standard equipment.
- Accuracy: They are almost equally accurate, Slight edge to the Swiss although the XCR does have the ‘more’ accurate heavy barrel.
- Reliability: Both are dead stupid reliable with factory ammo and quality mags. Haven’t abused either, but have noticed they run just as well to the 500 odd rounds that I run them to before cleaning.
- Trigger: Prefer the Swiss trigger – it’s exceptionally light and smooth, but the XCR’s ‘match’ trigger is also sublime and leagues ahead of most AR triggers.
- Operation: They are both very very smooth operating firearms and operate like a well oiled sewing machine. The XCR does throw spent brass a fair distance (~15-20 feet) whereas the spent brass on the Swiss likes to bounce off the receiver and hence causes some scratching – but hockey tape fixes that.
- Maintenance: Both are low maintenance and unassuming firearms. They will keep running for extended periods without cleaning. The XCR does require a few bolts to the loctited in place and checked periodically. I have never had any come loose or fall out – just incorporate it part of the cleaning/ inspection procedure and forget about it being an issue.
- Rails: The XCR has a s**t ton of rail space for mounting everything up to and including your kitchen sink. The Swiss is tastefully minimal. Note that the Classic green does not come with a top rail either (but aftermarket rail available) so mounting a scope requires additional investment over the XCR.
- Stock: The XCR has a fixed stock, the Swiss has a folding one. Take your pick. There is no play with the folding stock and the LOP on both stocks is just perfect.
- Balance: Both balance very well if a touch front heavy. Recoil is mild on both when compared to an AR and offhand and sitting position shooting is easy with or without a sling. The Swiss has a built in bipod for prone, but I find it to be a touch too high for me.
- Design: The XCR’s design is elegantly simplistic and rugged whereas the Swiss uses the tried and proven AK design philosophy.
- General ‘feel’: They both have a lot of ‘presence’ when compared to an AR. The XCR looks a lot more stylized whereas the Swiss has the traditional ‘Old Army’ look. Personal preference really. The Swiss does, however, feel slimmer in the hands and more handier even though it does have a ~ 2” longer barrel.
My recommendation: If you have an AR, buy the Swiss and get the XCR later. If you don’t have an AR, get whichever one tugs at your purse strings stronger. They are both really really nice firearms and you can’t really go wrong with either. One has to really nitpick as, believe it or not, there is not a whole lot of difference separating the two!
- Ergonomics: The XCR has superior ergonomics - left side charging handle, safety is easier to manipulate, magazine button release on the magwell and the finger bolt release at the base of the magwell/ trigger guard intersection. The ergonomics on the PE90 take a little bit of training to master, but work just as well. It just depends which school of though you align yourself to.
- Magazines: The Swiss has by far the better magazine over the AR15 mags. Built like a tank, smooth in operation and virtually jam-free – and has a ‘bullet feeder’ to boot. Additionally, they can be stacked for bonus coolness factor. The 5 round capacity compared to the LAR 10 rounders is a slight negative, but for paper target shooting I don’t suppose it really matters too much. An OEM Swiss magazine is pricey, but used ones or the Dominion Arms mags are competitively priced to the AR mags.
- Magazine changes: On the XCR, they are quick and efficient with minimal drama. On the Swiss you get the bonus swagger of the AK style ‘flick and change’. Magazine seating on the Swiss is more involved (insert at an angle and lock) but more positive and you can tell when it is fully seated. The XCR’s changes are just like an AR – drop free the old mag and slam up the new one.
- Build quality: They both are superbly built and feel like they are carved out of a single block of steel but the Swiss Arms is slightly better with tighter tolerances and certainly has more heft to it.
- Sights: The stock diopter iron sights on the Swiss are just stupendous, although the Midwest Industries flip ups on the XCR are not too shabby either and just as accurate. But compared to the Swiss, they look delicate and fragile and are, comparably, difficult to manipulate. Oh and the Swiss has night sights as standard equipment.
- Accuracy: They are almost equally accurate, Slight edge to the Swiss although the XCR does have the ‘more’ accurate heavy barrel.
- Reliability: Both are dead stupid reliable with factory ammo and quality mags. Haven’t abused either, but have noticed they run just as well to the 500 odd rounds that I run them to before cleaning.
- Trigger: Prefer the Swiss trigger – it’s exceptionally light and smooth, but the XCR’s ‘match’ trigger is also sublime and leagues ahead of most AR triggers.
- Operation: They are both very very smooth operating firearms and operate like a well oiled sewing machine. The XCR does throw spent brass a fair distance (~15-20 feet) whereas the spent brass on the Swiss likes to bounce off the receiver and hence causes some scratching – but hockey tape fixes that.
- Maintenance: Both are low maintenance and unassuming firearms. They will keep running for extended periods without cleaning. The XCR does require a few bolts to the loctited in place and checked periodically. I have never had any come loose or fall out – just incorporate it part of the cleaning/ inspection procedure and forget about it being an issue.
- Rails: The XCR has a s**t ton of rail space for mounting everything up to and including your kitchen sink. The Swiss is tastefully minimal. Note that the Classic green does not come with a top rail either (but aftermarket rail available) so mounting a scope requires additional investment over the XCR.
- Stock: The XCR has a fixed stock, the Swiss has a folding one. Take your pick. There is no play with the folding stock and the LOP on both stocks is just perfect.
- Balance: Both balance very well if a touch front heavy. Recoil is mild on both when compared to an AR and offhand and sitting position shooting is easy with or without a sling. The Swiss has a built in bipod for prone, but I find it to be a touch too high for me.
- Design: The XCR’s design is elegantly simplistic and rugged whereas the Swiss uses the tried and proven AK design philosophy.
- General ‘feel’: They both have a lot of ‘presence’ when compared to an AR. The XCR looks a lot more stylized whereas the Swiss has the traditional ‘Old Army’ look. Personal preference really. The Swiss does, however, feel slimmer in the hands and more handier even though it does have a ~ 2” longer barrel.
My recommendation: If you have an AR, buy the Swiss and get the XCR later. If you don’t have an AR, get whichever one tugs at your purse strings stronger. They are both really really nice firearms and you can’t really go wrong with either. One has to really nitpick as, believe it or not, there is not a whole lot of difference separating the two!
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I bought the PE90 new and the XCR lightly used (test fired only) through a private sale on CGN.
Waynetheman
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Vancouver.
*cry* missed out on buying a green carbine yesterday by a couple hours *cry*
