After effects of the T97 Ban

Maybe they wanted procedural justice? Most of us can live with an unsatisfactory decision if the process was fair and transparent. These concepts pre-date Hasselwander.
 
Maybe they wanted procedural justice? Most of us can live with an unsatisfactory decision if the process was fair and transparent. These concepts pre-date Hasselwander.
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I probably would have used the term "procedural fairness" when it comes to arriving at a decision, and some accountability about delivering a timely decision in a reasonable amount of time. I agree that we can live with an "unsatisfactory decision.

But alas, most if not all the info contained in these threads is 2nd or 3rd party, and based on conjecture and supposition.

If only the RCMP could post the decision? or the basics of how they arrived at it on there website, maybe in the end we would all be better served?
 
Questar said:
Then your knowledge is incomplete... I know of at least 1 person outside the RCMP firearms lab that actually knows the manner of conversion as you phrased it.

Hasselwander does not limit the amount of time needed to "study the problem" only the time needed to accomplish the conversion. Just because the lab had the gun in their possession for 21 days (the figure you state) does NOT in fact mean they started working with it on day one... it may have sat there for a week or more before they ever looked at it. We have submitted guns for examination that have sat for months awaiting their "turn" to be examined. My understanding (from what I was told about the T97) is that the lab technician came up with the conversion concept in a VERY short period of time (read minutes not weeks).

Who knows how many people who had the T97 in their possession prior to the classification change actually came up with the conversion and did it... a person would have to be an idiot to publicly boast that they had intentionally built a Prohibited Firearm by illegally converting it to full auto operation.

From what I have been told about this specific case there is very little doubt (in my mind) that the court will have to confirm the RCMP's findings.

Mark
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You said everything I was thinking of posting.
 
I know of at least 1 person outside the RCMP firearms lab that actually knows the manner of conversion as you phrased it.
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I've heard 3 or 4 different methods described by non-firearms lab people. Frankly, I do not believe that any of those methods are true. The RCMP has been careful to avoid releasing the information. In the A2A requests they blacked out all the information on 'national security' grounds.

Frankly, NO ONE KNOWS outside the RCMP.

Hasselwander does not limit the amount of time needed to "study the problem" only the time needed to accomplish the conversion. Just because the lab had the gun in their possession for 21 days (the figure you state) does NOT in fact mean they started working with it on day one... it may have sat there for a week or more before they ever looked at it.
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This is partly true. The SCC did not consider whether or not the RCMP firearms lab would attempt to reverse engineer a failure of the test. As for the actual time spent in examining, it does not change the fact that the employees of the firearms lab are EXPERTS. Just because an expert can do something, doesn't mean a lay person could have figured it out. If it takes an expert, its not relatively easy.

Look behind the words to the intent of the judges. They aren't concerned with experts being able to engineer a full automatic firearm, they're concerned with criminals and lay people. When they say 'relatively easy' they mean relatively easy for a normal person.

From what I have been told about this specific case there is very little doubt (in my mind) that the court will have to confirm the RCMP's findings.
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No offence, but I don't think you are particularly well informed on this. The RCMP has never released how they did it. Not even in disclosure upon a legal challenge by CanAm. They are still stonewalling the release of the information, even with undertakings to keep the reports confidential. In short, they're hiding the information, its reasonable to ask why.

The whole mess is a violation of the procedural fairness duties owed by the registrar. They have a duty to provide written reasons. Upon challenge they have a duty to disclose relevant documents. This alone is grounds to force a re-hearing of the issues. Then we have a question of whether or not the decision is due deference or not. My position is that it is not.
 
Questar said:
Who knows how many people who had the T97 in their possession prior to the classification change actually came up with the conversion and did it...
Mark
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:rolleyes:LAME!
As a former owner of a T97, I really take exception to that comment. There were very few of these rifles in this country, all purchased by valid holders of restricted class PAL's. Why would any of them risk doing something so colossally stupid?


But hey! There are a lot of firearms importers and retailers in Canada, who knows how many of them import and sell illegal firearms and munitions??? Haaa?....but it would be really stupid for them to post about it on an open forum right?

If you want to start casting aspersions, lets cast aspersions. That's really good for the community. Let's paint everyone as possible criminals.


P.S. Why was this thread moved to black rifles?
 
Yeah I dunno, I figured as its a modern rifle it should be here in Black rifles. We have Nork ARs here which are just the same as the T97.
 
USP said:
Yeah I dunno, I figured as its a modern rifle it should be here in Black rifles. We have Nork ARs here which are just the same as the T97.
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Not to be some sort of sh*t disturber, but the T97 is a Communist design while the M4 is an American design. Arent the definition of red rifles, rifles that are made designed/made by communists?
 
Some lessons? They will do anything to send a chill over imports (ban by proxy); We can never expect fairness and accountability in the firearms arena; A picture on the Internet is enough to send some 'officials' into a Stasi frenzy. The librocrats are so well-entrenched that they don't care one way or another what we think (or maybe even the government of the day).
 
Paul Morrison said:
I've heard 3 or 4 different methods described by non-firearms lab people. Frankly, I do not believe that any of those methods are true. The RCMP has been careful to avoid releasing the information. In the A2A requests they blacked out all the information on 'national security' grounds.

Frankly, NO ONE KNOWS outside the RCMP.
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You can believe whatever you like (or disbelieve) but the statement I made previously is true... I know of at least 1 person outside of the RCMP who was given the specifics of how the RCMP converted the gun... whether they told Chris from CanAm or not doesn't change the facts. Perhaps it was un- intentional and/or unauthorized that they gave those details, I don't know, but they did it and your statements to the contrary don't change that.

Paul Morrison said:
No offence, but I don't think you are particularly well informed on this. The RCMP has never released how they did it. Not even in disclosure upon a legal challenge by CanAm. They are still stonewalling the release of the information, even with undertakings to keep the reports confidential. In short, they're hiding the information, its reasonable to ask why.
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Again, you can "think" whatever you like. The information I've given is all first hand and direct knowledge... sorry if it doesn't fit with what you've been told by others or with what you believe to be the case. Time will tell if I was "particularly well informed on this" or not (to use your words :)).

I was criticized heavily a year ago when I posted that the RCMP had declared the S&W rimfire magazines "Prohibited Devices"... just about everyone said I was full of it and that it was impossible that I could know this information when even the importer and distributor of the rifles was not aware of any such classification ruling or decision. But months later the decision was made public and everything I had posted was proven correct.

Believe what you like.

Mark
 
Clobbersauras said:
:rolleyes:LAME!
As a former owner of a T97, I really take exception to that comment. There were very few of these rifles in this country, all purchased by valid holders of restricted class PAL's. Why would any of them risk doing something so colossally stupid?
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You took what I said out of context. I was simply responding to what Paul had written:

There were dozens of them (T97's) already in civillian hands for over two years, and yet not one report that they were ever actually converted. No 'kits' for adapting them were available. This all stands in marked contrast to Hasselwander, where parts kits were sold openly and legally, and where the knowledge was widely available.​

I was simply asking Paul how he or anyone else could "know" how many owners had in fact thought of a way to do this or had in fact attempted to do so. I stated that it would be stupid for anyone to do it and even dumber to advertise the fact publicly... my point being that "we" would never know and his suggestion that not hearing about it meant it had never actually been done... was a conclusion that can't be deduced based on that simple premise.

It was never my intent to slam any T97 owners... you interpreted what I was saying totally wrong. Sorry for any confusion.

Mark
 
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