After effects of the T97 Ban

[North Eastern Arms]

so how do we go about getting the super secret squirrel level clearance that you have attained.

As for me, i think i will take the word of someone like Mark who i'm sure has reliable friends inside the RCMP from the years he has done business with them.

Yes we absolutely need to support the current efforts being made by Canam.


Questar I sent you a personal email with more details that I'm not willing to post here.

Anyone who wants to dispute that all details of the conversion are now classified and have been for a while can do a freedom of information request for themselves in fact we should all do one. If you have been following this from the beginning you'll find that there have been multiple vetted sources who I believe to have honestly conveyed what they were told, the problem is none of the stories match, I personally have been told everything from it took weeks to it took 5 minutes to they manufactured new parts to it was premeditated and purposeful... all coming from vetted sources that I don't believe would make them up and are close to the situation in one way or another. I'm highly suspect of anything, no matter who the source at this point, not to mention that ITS CLASSIFIED.

There have been actual court proceedings that you can review if you like that will give a better picture of whats going on then the conjecture in this thread.

I'm not suggesting you take my word for it I am only suggesting that people do their homework before supporting the RCMP's position. There is a lot more to this case then is apparent on the surface and most of it stinks.

 

[suprathepeg]

Nothing secret about it, you just gotta start doing your own research. Talk to people who are actually involved, people who have been to court to date and those who are in court now. Talk to Paul who has also been following this from a legal standpoint from the beginning. I know what I know by following this thing from the beginning. The only mystery is what the RCMP has classified and what comes out WRT the reclassification seems to change with the wind.

All I'm pointing out is that its not wise to draw conclusions on this thing from sources that cannot be qualified with evidence.

How about instead of wasting time commenting on something you obviously have no understanding of you invest some time into researching the issue and when you're done maybe throw some needed financial support Canam's way.

You guys are all failing to see how important this really is. It may be the defining moment for legal gun owners in Canada from a judicial standpoint.

 

[themarauder]

If I had my way we'd have legal full auto and no problems. As it is I think that we just need to scrap the "Easily convertible to full auto" BS and keep the "it's illegal to convert to full auto". There. Doing something illegal is still illegal, so piss off RCMP firearms lab and leave those of us who aren't doing illegal things alone with our toys.

 

[Bentleg]

Don't attribute to conspiracy what can be easily explained by Stupidity or laziness.

I expect that the reference model of the T97 submitted for initial classification was fine.. met the standards and was properly classified.. then when the production version came in .. the manufacturer cut some corners to boost their margin and either used unmodified receivers, or an unmodified trigger group .. so that it was found that the production version did not have the same attributes as the reference version. And.. Ta Da .. the RCMP went "how 'bout, No, nice try, Maybe get a real manufacturer that won't cut corners.. and we can talk.

Seeing as there is only one source for these guns.. that pretty much finished it.

Like this would be the first time that a Chinese manufacturer pulled a "bait and switch"....

 

[suprathepeg]

Don't attribute to conspiracy what can be easily explained by Stupidity or laziness.

I expect that the reference model of the T97 submitted for initial classification was fine.. met the standards and was properly classified.. then when the production version came in .. the manufacturer cut some corners to boost their margin and either used unmodified receivers, or an unmodified trigger group .. so that it was found that the production version did not have the same attributes as the reference version. And.. Ta Da .. the RCMP went "how 'bout, No, nice try, Maybe get a real manufacturer that won't cut corners.. and we can talk.

Seeing as there is only one source for these guns.. that pretty much finished it.

Like this would be the first time that a Chinese manufacturer pulled a "bait and switch"....

Nope not the issue at all. That has been ruled out on day one.

 

[tiriaq]

Most of the "information" about this situation is speculation, opinion or chest thumping indignation.

I have seen very little in the way of what appears to be good solid fact.

There are those who claim to be in the know. Rarely is this knowledge shared. I have no reason to doubt what Mark has reported.

Given that there does not appear to be any public source of actual information, the whole mess seems to be more than a bit foggy.

I expect that Chris at CanAM, having the greatest stake in the T97 issue, knows much more than most. He has chosen to say very little, no doubt for good reason.

 

[geotensor]

I don't know who to believe. I usually take any government action on bad faith but this has led me to make some very wrong conclusions in the past. Don't forget to invoke Hanlon's Razor when it comes to these matters. It seems very possible that it took a long time for them to look at the rifle, then they found a way to convert it to full-auto very quickly.

A FOI will need to be done about this. What looks like malice could really just be bureaucracies being slow, as usual.

 

[USP]

There seems to be some confusion here.

Apparently we have the following

RCMP refuses publicly to declare how technically the gun is a converted to FA

RCMP privately tells a few people how this was accomplished

Some of you seem shocked that an organization could have leaks to the public made through the loudmouth practices of a few unscrupulous employees.

From what I gather the T97 was also made at a variety of plants and the second large shipment did have some differences in its construction. Then again maybe I am wrong.

Either way I hope the test case wins and or the laws are changed to better protect gun onwers from this happening in the future.

 

[tbloggins]

Go ahead and keep arguing guys. No one is going to win this one. Bunch of he said, she said stuff. You can't prove yourselves right, you can't prove yourselves wrong. Conjecture, innuendo and rumourmongering.........oh, and hurt feelings and high blood pressure. Give it a rest. Let's switch gears.

One good effect, if you can call it that, is that the Minister of Public Safety said that the owners would be compensated. This has opened a door and set a precedent.

Take my guns, you'll have to pay me. Now there is a cost factor involved instead of just coming and taking them.

If the RCMP go crazy(ier), someone is going to have to pay, and they ain't gonna be happy with the bill when it hits the table.

Push your MP to get Property Rights added to the CPC's agenda, because right now, you don't have any.

BTW, when they do want to confiscate something, strip it down and only hand over the piece with the serial# on it. I'll bet more than one ERT\ SWAT\ whatever has been outfitted with confiscated firearms. Just guessing

 

[smartbomb]

Deleted

 

[Agent Law]

Well, the ACR had that recall, so the evaluation was put on hold, IIRC

 

[Paul Morrison]

I suggest that you and p.m. are the ones misinformed, and your posts should be removed for misleading the gun owners on cgn.

I am quite sorry this thread has become a pissing contest, but I'm quite sure I'm not wrong. I have had a long history on this issue with Chris from CanAm. Unfortunately, due to the nature of my involvement I am absolutely bound not to say anything more than that.

I don't accept your statement that the information is a "National Security" issue or "classified" as you indicate above. The RCMP may not be giving it out freely and may be withholding it from their evidenciary disclosures (made to date), however, I will again restate what I said previously, that I have direct knowledge of at least 1 person outside of the RCMP who was given these details.

The initial Access to Information Request made by CanAm specifically requested the technical report. The report was not included, and so a complaint was made specifically requesting the technical report. The reports introduction and conclusion were present but all of the information in between (basically the entire report) was marked as redacted under s. 16 of the Access to Information Act, which related to police investigations and national security.

In my repeated conversations with Chris, he has told me that they've communicated to him at least three different methods, and they have attempted to stonewall disclosure at every stage. So, if your person has information, that information may have been one of the methods that have been communicated, but that doesn't mean the information is accurate. Even Chris has never recieved such information to his satisfaction, sufficiently reliable to base their court challenge on.

But knowing how it could be done prior to a hearing would be essential. How could the RCM Police's postion be challenged from a basis of ignorance?

Bingo. Which is precisely why CanAm has spent thousands of dollars trying to force them into saying exactly how the modification is done. Because then they can go to china and try it, see if they are right. I've talked with Chris, his position has always been: its possible the RCMP is actually right. If they are, then no problem. But... the fact that they've stonewalled providing critical evidence, in violation of the duty of procedural fairness, even after threats of litigation, is evidence that their position is not as sound as they make it out to be. The old saying: "where there's smoke there's fire" is apt.

I personally have been told everything from it took weeks to it took 5 minutes to they manufactured new parts to it was premeditated and purposeful...

From the A2A materials I've seen I know this: The firearm arrived at the lab on a particular day, the report was filed a particular day. The intervening period was approximately 3 weeks. As for premeditated, I absolutely believe the classification was pre-meditated. I've seen the emails between CBSA and NWEST. Ask Chris to show them to you.

As for me, i think i will take the word of someone like Mark who i'm sure has reliable friends inside the RCMP from the years he has done business with them.

I would suggest you contact Chris from CanAm and have a conversation with him about this. I would suggest Mark do the same.

From what I gather the T97 was also made at a variety of plants and the second large shipment did have some differences in its construction. Then again maybe I am wrong.

I believe Chris ruled this out.

 

[lawn gnome]

Thank you Paul. That was the most reasoned thing said so far.

It boils down to being easy to convert or not. They must show this publicly in open court. If it is easy to convert, then there is no need to declare it national security since no T97 will be brought in. Hiding behind some bs security clause only begs the question of denying evidence.

People remember, that the RCMP have no problem seeding disinformation to multiple sources in the hope that Gun Nutz will waste all their time devouring each other, rather than turning their collective healthy suspicion upon the RCMP.

Please don't waste effort holding each other to this kind of scrutiny.
It is the folks who attempted a reclassification that need be held accountable.

 

[caramel]

With a Tavor on order i feel anxiety they could take it aways or put it restricted, so sick off that... JP.

 

[cormann2]

thank you paul. That was the most reasoned thing said so far.

It boils down to being easy to convert or not. They must show this publicly in open court. If it is easy to convert, then there is no need to declare it national security since no t97 will be brought in. Hiding behind some bs security clause only begs the question of denying evidence.

People remember, that the rcmp have no problem seeding disinformation to multiple sources in the hope that gun nutz will waste all their time devouring each other, rather than turning their collective healthy suspicion upon the rcmp.

Please don't waste effort holding each other to this kind of scrutiny.
It is the folks who attempted a reclassification that need be held accountable.

x2!

 

[Deckard]

As well as the Librocrat shadow government.

 

[lone-wolf]

If I had my way we'd have legal full auto and no problems. As it is I think that we just need to scrap the "Easily convertible to full auto" BS and keep the "it's illegal to convert to full auto". There. Doing something illegal is still illegal, so piss off RCMP firearms lab and leave those of us who aren't doing illegal things alone with our toys.

yeah, most logical thing I heard. If only logic played a role in politics of any sort.

 

[toomanymachines]

I think another issue exists. Canams rifles were built at a later date. different batch, etc. Now the question is was it the early version or the late version the rcmp played with?
I also think that the rcmp may be trying to bully the classification to the end that they desire. It would not be the first time or the last time that this has been tried. If none of these rifle exist in civilian hands, why would they have any reason for nation security if the rifles are not available to convert as they suggest. The knowledge they are keeping secret would be of no value to anyone without the rifle.
And yes I agree that in Canada, you are innocent till proven guilty. Or at least that is what we are tought in school.

 

[suprathepeg]

The internal workings of all the rifles are the same.

I know people like to bash China's manufacturing and in some cases its justified. I have worked closely with manufacturing houses all over the world, at home and specifically China; my experiences with China have all been stellar and I would consider them to be among is not the most professional I've had the pleasure to deal with. All that aside, people need to understand that Norinco and Polytech are both internationally known for being professional, consistent and top of their game. They may not make pretty looking things but they know their trade as well as any other and they sell to civilian and military customers all over the world including the US gov. Bait and switch is not something they are known for, in general terms this would be a bad assumption WRT Norinco. Just because they have multiple plants does not mean that they don't build to spec.

 

[North Eastern Arms]

The internal workings of all the rifles are the same.

I know people like to bash China's manufacturing and in some cases its justified. I have worked closely with manufacturing houses all over the world, at home and specifically China; my experiences with China have all been stellar and I would consider them to be among is not the most professional I've had the pleasure to deal with. All that aside, people need to understand that Norinco and Polytech are both internationally known for being professional, consistent and top of their game. They may not make pretty looking things but they know their trade as well as any other and they sell to civilian and military customers all over the world including the US gov

really? Norinco sells product to the U.S gov? care to favor us with a link?