Self defense loads for 9mm

I have had a .40 cal 180gr berrys TMJFN completely penetrate a 5gallon pail filled with water in my 10mm. If anything, over-penetration simillar to FMJ may be an issue. I also noticed the 45cal hollow point berrys to be too solidly constructed to expand at all when penetrating pails of water. XTP's are also fairly solid, but the hard driven .40 cal tears open water jugs and pails like a fat kid getting through a Lil Debbie wrapper.

People are not pure water. Use a better medium and you will get expansion.

Water jugs are a terrible indicator of bullet performance because they are brittle and can be torn open by hydrostatic pressure.


What does the RCMP use?

Winchester Ranger (the old Black Talon) which is quite difficult to find these days.


A few years ago I did a whole battery of terminal ballistics testing on a wide variety of 9mm JHP bullets and a few other calibers. All the data was posted on this website at the time.

What I found after numerous tests was that 147gr JHP of good quality offered the best combination of penetration and expansion. The lighter stuff tended to explode, shed weight and not penetrate as deeply. The epitomone of that being the 110gr JHP 357 Mag which created a one inch entry hole and failed to penetrate hardly at all.

On the other end of the scale were the high performance 45 ACP bullets which tended to open up so big that their penetration was reduced.

Of the 147gr JHP 9mm, the high end factory ammo was all fairly close. The best of them being the Remington Golden Sabre which opened up the same every time no matter what we shot it into or through.

Reloaded bullets tended not to expand as well as the premium stuff but they would penetrate to the same depth.

We also tested some extremely exotic stuff as well as an RCMP issue level 2A kevlar vest to determine what will penetrate kevlar and what won't.

FWIW IF, hypothetically I was to choose ammo for self defence, my choice would include the Rem Golden Sabre 147gr interspersed with some high velocity frangible rounds capable of penetrating kevlar. That combination gives the ablility to penetrate body armour with the best possible combination of penetration and expansion in soft tissue.

I sincerely hope that I can live my entire life out without ever having to shoot someone. It is simply not something I want to experience. But that doesn't mean I am not prepared nor willing to defend myself or my family.
 
Numbers are just numbers...

Buy a 1000+ rounds of what you gun likes the best and practice, practice, practice. If your club allows, practice on moving targets too.

The best bullets in the world in the best gun in the world aint worth #### if you can aim properly with it.

And those "scenarios" where robbers come into your house wearing plated armor and ####... if they came in your house with body armor on, they are ready to be shot at and most likely you'll be dead by the time you grab your gun.
 
Numbers are just numbers...

Buy a 1000+ rounds of what you gun likes the best and practice, practice, practice. If your club allows, practice on moving targets too.

The best bullets in the world in the best gun in the world aint worth #### if you can aim properly with it.

And those "scenarios" where robbers come into your house wearing plated armor and ####... if they came in your house with body armor on, they are ready to be shot at and most likely you'll be dead by the time you grab your gun.

If an unlawful entry into my home comes up againts my skill with a glock 20 with super hot hornaday 180gr XTP in 10mm auto. It'll be on the news. Its legal to be a skilled shooter with them. :)

Booyaa!
 
If someone wanted to load up some 9mm ammo for self defense, what would be a good type of bullet to buy and where is a good place to buy them?

Factory-loaded cartridges are recommended by most authorities.

Sporteque has some 147 Gr PDX1 in stock now.
<http://sporteque.ca/product.php?id_product=1181>

SFRC has some 124gr TAP in stock now.
<http://www.theammosource.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_33_239&products_id=991>

Frontier Firearms has some 115 gr Critical Defense in stock now.
<http://www.frontierfirearms.ca/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=10_497_618&products_id=3060>
 
There are 14 boxes of 3 kinds of ammo loaded for my revolver at the moment. 110gr XTP's at about 1600 with 9gr of Unique, 158gr XTP's at about the same speed with 16gr of lil gun and 158gr home cast round nose lead with 4.5 or 5 gr of unique, I forget, but much much milder..

I never want it to come up, but if I grab that gun instead of a shotgun out of my safe, kinda hoping the box of 110's are on top. You can't argue factory vs handloaded at my house because I bought a box of 6.5x55 swede ammo a couple years ago, as I didn't have the dies yet and it was hunting season..

I see factory ammo as being 2-4 times more expensive as the kind I shoot. Only makes sense, I have warm ammo because it's fun and satisfying to shoot.

I know this will start a new argument, but I have a 870 supermag and the "closest" shells are probably going to be 3.5" #4 or #6 heavi-shot. Seeing as the longest hallway in my house is 20', not so worried.
 
If there is a slightest possibility of ever using your firearm in a self defence situation, I strongly recommend using "COMMERCIALLY" manufactured self-defence ammo.

If you were to reload a "deadlier than most" round and were to shoot someone with it, the Crown Prosecutor would go for the jugular vein and then proceed to tear you a new #######.

From a legal standpoint, DO NOT RELOAD any "special self-defence" rounds. The commercial stuff works extremely well.
 
If there is a slightest possibility of ever using your firearm in a self defence situation, I strongly recommend using "COMMERCIALLY" manufactured self-defence ammo.

If you were to reload a "deadlier than most" round and were to shoot someone with it, the Crown Prosecutor would go for the jugular vein and then proceed to tear you a new a**hole.

From a legal standpoint, DO NOT RELOAD any "special self-defence" rounds. The commercial stuff works extremely well.

What if you reload hollow points to normal recommended pressures, per commonly available manuals, how will the courts see that?
 
If you were to reload a "deadlier than most" round and were to shoot someone with it, the Crown Prosecutor would go for the jugular vein and then proceed to tear you a new a**hole.

What on earth is a "dealier than most" round? Who decides what round is more deadly than another and how exactly is that measured? How does one quantify the relative deadliness of a cartridge?

Your posting is utterly ridiculous and full of fail. :(
 
If there is a slightest possibility of ever using your firearm in a self defence situation, I strongly recommend using "COMMERCIALLY" manufactured self-defence ammo.

If you were to reload a "deadlier than most" round and were to shoot someone with it, the Crown Prosecutor would go for the jugular vein and then proceed to tear you a new a**hole.

From a legal standpoint, DO NOT RELOAD any "special self-defence" rounds. The commercial stuff works extremely well.

You call them special defense, I call them water bucket destroyers... :rockOn:

Although I see what you are trying to say, its whatever gets jammed into the chamber under stressful circumstances, They all live side by side in the lock box.
 
What on earth is a "dealier than most" round? Who decides what round is more deadly than another and how exactly is that measured? How does one quantify the relative deadliness of a cartridge?

Your posting is utterly ridiculous and full of fail. :(

It sounds to me like gun hating, Wendy-ish verbal legal mumbo jumbo diarrhea, so it doesn't need to make sense.

Make sense to you now?
 
Hornady XTP 115 or 124 jacketed hollow points. Make your loads hot, and confirm that they cycle. I figure that if you buy a box of 100 bullets, you have 80 rounds for load development.

I have a box of 100 bullets at home, I just haven't started the load dev. I figure I'll try Unique and Titegroup, halfway to maximum and work my way up as hot as I can go without wrecking my gun.

If its a self defence situation, your going to be firing from 25m or less. its not going to matter weather its a hot load or a regular load.

My two cents, pick a good mid range powder load, a lower grain hollow point round so you dont get over penetration and risk hurting a loved one or by stander outside your house. have enough rounds for a few double taps. Chances are, you cocking a handgun is going to scare the bugler away before you even see him.

Self defence with a firearm in Canada is a joke, your better off with a bat for the amount of trouble youll get in for shooting a suspect while hes raping your wife, and trying to shoot you at the same. And it would be you defending yourself and family who would end up with more jail time.
 
It sounds to me like gun hating, Wendy-ish verbal legal mumbo jumbo diarrhea, so it doesn't need to make sense.

Make sense to you now?

You understand, the guy wasn't saying that your handloads are "deadlier than most". He was saying that the Wendy-ish person on the jury will believe that they are "deadlier than most". Don't get mad at the messenger because you don't like the message.
 
What on earth is a "dealier than most" round? Who decides what round is more deadly than another and how exactly is that measured? How does one quantify the relative deadliness of a cartridge?

Your posting is utterly ridiculous and full of fail. :(

Your posting is utterly and ridiculously full of fail.

The point this poster is trying to make, and the point that all the qualified legal experts in the U.S. make (there are no public self-defense experts in Canada to consult), is that an overzealous prosecutor will claim that your rounds are special "man-killing rounds" when you go to court. It doesn't matter if they are less deadly, or more deadly, or made from unicorn farts and tissue paper... the 12 people who judge you aren't going to know anything about hand loading, or muzzle velocities, or any of that stuff. The prosecutor will call them special "man-killer" bullets, and the jury will take his word for it.

When you use off the shelf bullets, that you can buy in any gun store or Walmart, you seem like a normal guy who enjoys shooting to people who are gun-illiterate. When you hand load, the prosecutor will make you seem like some sort of blood-thirsy mad scientist to the jury.
 
Following any use-of-force, you can expect an investigation and/or legal charges and/or legal trials. Notwithstanding the opinion of some anonymous internet commandos to the contrary, most authorities on the subject - including Massad Ayoob - recommend the use of quality factory-manufactured duty ammunition and, specifically, the avoidance of the use of any handloaded ammunition.

It's your choice as to whose opinion you would follow.
 
Situation (legal system) in the USA is different from here.

They even have states that promote "castle doctrine", so it doesn't really matter what ammo you use. The intruder has no business being in your castle at 3 a.m. in the first place. It basically open season on the bad guy.

However, here in Canada, if you shoot the intruder with an airsoft plastic pellet and say, it enters the intruder's open mouth choking him to death, you'll likely still be charged for something.

Anyway, I hope somebody who knows the law, preferably an intimate working knowledge, can chime in.
 
Situation (legal system) in the USA is different from here.

They even have states that promote "castle doctrine", so it doesn't really matter what ammo you use. The intruder has no business being in your castle at 3 a.m. in the first place. It basically open season on the bad guy.

However, here in Canada, if you shoot the intruder with an airsoft plastic pellet and say, it enters the intruder's open mouth choking him to death, you'll likely still be charged for something.

Anyway, I hope somebody who knows the law, preferably an intimate working knowledge, can chime in.

One of the frustrating things is that there are no public authorities on this kind of thing in Canada. So, those of us who can't afford a lawyer to answer the question, we just have to kind of speculate. There isn't a Massad Ayoob here to answer our questions. If someone here is a lawyer and gun enthusiastic, please create a blog/newsletter/etc.... I would gladly pay to subscribe.

My gut feeling, would be to err on the side of caution. If you can go to jail for firing warning shots at people trying to kill you, my guess is that they will use anything and everything to try to convict you if you actually shot someone in self defense.
 
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