Average AR15 effective range.

LordEvilPepper said:
Fair enough.
But I digress, the C7 is listed as a 400m effective range indiidualy (300 M in some pams, which is more on par with what you will actualy get out of an avrage service riffle).

The bullet we use in our army might be able to reach out and touch at 800m, but I have seen enough guys limp/crawl, or outright run away from a hit at 400-500m to call it "effective" past 300 from a repition fire riffle.
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If an individual is wounded by a 556 at as you say 400-500yds, if he limps or crawls away, I'm thinking he would not play any part in the rest of that particular engagement.
This means to me he may not send anything my way or any of my comrades way that would harm them. Mortal wounds can sometimes take awhile to conclude, but the individual is at that moment facing the grave and I'm sure his thoughts are probaly on his own well being.
The enemy are just down a man.

For years I compared the 556 squarely against the 762NATO, and underestimated it's battle winning capabilities. Except for barrier penetration, the 556 will incapacitate rapidly inside fragmentation range, and outside of that, the wounded enemy that may survive initially, would not be able to deliver accurate fire because of said distances and his grevious wounds ,if he could fire back at all. I'm not sure if we are including threats with body armour here or not. Our Nato troops all wear it , I'm not sure as to the threats they face in Iraq and Afghanistan right now?
I can only speculate, but when an individual is wounded in the torso, I'm betting 98% are going to be overwhelmed with their predicament immediately. The further you are from the enemy when wounded , heres where the AR's accuracy comes in, the lesser the immediate threat to you and therefore the more you will concentrate on fighting to survive the wound you just been dealt and not be trying to squeeze of rounds to accurate hit back.
Again guys I haven't been there and done that, so I am open to schooling by experienced persons. LEP if those individuals that you said left the area after being hit played a further role in action, please correct me. :canadaFlag:
 
LordEvilPepper said:
I think the "effective" term is the real sticking point in this conversation. My effective obviously differs from your avrage shooter. So what is effective to you?

-disired accuracy at range
-velocity/energy at were the round becomes ineffective at its disired purpose (aka person, animal, or object target)
-The range at were you can engage from a natrual shooting postion or from a bench vice?

To me Effictive means, the engament of a man sized target from a natrual shooting postion with the power to effectivly "down" the target.
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Well the high power guys down south shoot out to 600 yards prone very accuratly with iron sights with their Ar15's. Not sure what kind of power the round maintains at that range. But their hitting human sized targets with pretty good regularity.

Add a good optic and things get even better.

The 600 yard line.
21831d1242177653-high-power-rifle-match-1571260-r1-010-3a.jpg
 
LordEvilPepper said:
When I say 400m, I mean CAN start to tumble at 400m

honestly my swiss arms hasn't had an issue either when I shot it out to 475, but every C7 I have been issued (in the reg force) has been terible. to many recruits scraping the crown with a cleaning rod to pass inspection.

The C7 A2 riffle Iused for TFA 2008 was in such bad shape I could cause it to jam by twisting (side to side) the forward grip while the riffle was seated in my shoulder. When I twisted the riffle I could get a 3/32 gap between the recievers The bolt Had a "C" on it meaning it was one of the original issue to the CF and It was so worn that I kept having to get the gass rings replaced because as soon as the broke in I got gas stopages. The gun techs eventualy gave me a new bolt.
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I have shot C77 out of 20" C7s to 600m with no issues.
I have also found that skipping bullets off the ground causes them to tumble.
 
smak_daddy said:
Well the high power guys down south shoot out to 600 yards prone very accuratly with iron sights with their Ar15's. Not sure what kind of power the round maintains at that range. But their hitting human sized targets with pretty good regularity.

Add a good optic and things get even better.

The 600 yard line.
21831d1242177653-high-power-rifle-match-1571260-r1-010-3a.jpg
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These results are what I remember our Sevice rifle shooters saying circa 1987, competing against the RCR's from gagetown when they first got the C-7s, they couldn't believe the scores on the Fig.11/59s at 600yds!! And remember they were A2 sights I believe?
 
LordEvilPepper said:
well its to bad they still issue out the cirrca 1987 riffles... cause these days they shoot like garbage
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If their the same rifles with little or no FTR I'd see where their accuracy is gone. Remember the Rifles I spoke of were brand new at the time and the shooters were all marksman with the FNC1 and aperture sights, so their transition to that sweet 20inch barreled AR must have been a dream. I'd say their groups would have immediately tightened by 40%. I trained with the C1 and shot my own L1A1, and from what I remember, it wouldn't hold a candle to a Colt H Bar at 300 yds.
Maybe some of the older guys who were in Reg force and good with the C1, could chime in and tell us about the transistion to the AR and how much better or worst the overall marksmanship was on the range with the new weapon.
 
Last C7A1 I had shot well too; a nice 4.5 cm group at 100m. But that was over 5 years ago when I was in the reserves. That was a little used riffle when I got it, the recievers were still tight without the ruber bumper installed.

all the C7A2's are just refurbs. new green hardware, some have new barrels a lot don't. If you get one new out of the box they rock, if you get a 87 its junk, 89/90 you might be ok.

One of the issues I have with the A2 is the flimsy colapsible buttstock. It always seems to shift on me; espicaily since many guys took the ruber pad off the back so its just a flat piece of plastic on your shoulder.
 
LordEvilPepper said:
It does when it no longer fits properly to the upper and you get large amounts of play. They attempted to adress this with a ruber wedge under the rear take down pin, but it was only a stop gap.
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Negative. Everything that effects accuracy is contained in the upper. It doesn't matter if it flops around like Gumby.
 
CF Military definitions of the terms discussed are here.

For the C7A2:

OPERATING DATA
System of Operation - Gas operated, and magazine fed.
Safety Feature - Mechanically locked rotating bolt.
Velocity at 24 Metres - (approx.) 923 m/s (3 027 fps)
Rate-of-Fire - Semi-automatic - 45 - 65 rpm
Automatic - 150 - 200 rpm
Sustained - 12 - 15 rpm
Cyclic Rate-of-Fire - 700 - 940 rpm

Range
Maximum - 3000 M (3257 yd)
Maximum Effective - 550 M (597 yd)

BARREL DATA
Length (with compensator) - 53 cm (21 in.)
Length (barrel only) - 51 cm (20 in.)
Calibre - 5.56 mm (0.223 in.)

RIFLING PARTICULARS
Number of Grooves - 6
Pitch of Rifling - 1 turn in 17.8 cm (7 in.)
Direction of Twist - Right Hand

Reference: C-71-295-000/MA-001 DATA SUMMARY RIFLE, 5.56 mm, AUTOMATIC, C7A2

These ranges are technical evaluations of how far the projectile travels and ballistic stability characteristics only. Doctrinal maximum effective C7 range is 400 M. That figure is a tactical range planning figure for commanders only, not an evaluation of the technical capability of the ammo, rifle, or shooter, its a combination of all three. Terminal ballistics of the C77 is part of this equation obviously and this explains why the C9 is also deemed effective out to 600m. Currently Canadian training doctrine (The CF Operational Shooting Program) only trains to shoot out to 300 M.

Some quoteable characteristics of the C7A2 rifle from the manual:
  • It is capable of quick and accurate fire at short range opportunity targets.
  • It is capable of a high rate of accurate, rapid fire at ranges up to 300 metres when used by an individual.
  • It can provide effective section fire at ranges up to 600 metres.
It is easy to see why instructors and recruits might get confused but the answers are all there in black and white if they make the extra effort.
 
Wow some pretty funny opinions from people on here!I have been on 5 CF Team Canada's to Bisley and other fun places.I have fired 10's of thousands of rounds, if not 100's of thousands, through C7 A1 and 2s and I have been in the butts for thousands more.I have never once seen a C77 round tumble out to 500m UNLESS it hit the berm in front of the target first.And I have seen some pretty crappy C7's fire them.Yep groups were big but they all went straight through with no tumbling.Same for C9's.
The lower has zero effect on the accuracy of a C7.All it is is a trigger.If you are silly enough(or missinformed) to use a sling with you C7 you may find accuracy degrade because you are pulling on the barrel with different tensions from shot to shot,but again the lower has zero to do with it.
The average CF Bisley shooter can make a 1.75-2.5 inch group with a decent C7 at 100m.Occasionally smaller, but not consistantly.And that's with optics.All you guys claiming these tiny groups are full of it.The grouping capacity of a 20 inch AR with a regular issue type barrel at 100m is 2-5 inches.The guns are not capable of anything better due to thier design.

The claimed deficiencies of the round here are actually deficiencies in shooter training.Nothing more.
 
At NSCC this year, CF competitors using C7s with C79s on top and shooting C77 ball will be able to shoot in the precision matches. There will be a separate aggregate for these shooters. It will be interesting to see the results. There will be no corresponding Open class, for the dreaded space guns, although any competitor wanting to shoot an AR based rifle would be free to do so, in direct competiton with the conventional precision rifles.
Twenty years ago, when ammunition was still being issued for DCRA fullbore TR competition, there was interest in 5.56 caliber target rifles. General opinion was that issue 62gr. 5.56 ball was good, accurate ammunition when fired in a target rifle.
 
based on what dc13 is saying,

In a nut shell, 550m is the maximum range you can shoot if you know what you are doing

400m is the maximum range that should be utilized in the battle plan on someone's paper when there is a bunch of infanteers sitting around.

300m is the maximum range that people are actually trained to do.
 
In reference to DC13s info...effective section fire to 600m proves that a single trained rifleman can get effective hits that far.They only make it section fire because of a lack of well trained riflemen.I guess they figure a volley of shots might stand a better chance of a hit.Well someone had to fire that shot!The weapon system and ammo are obviously capable,but the limiting factor is the nut behind the trigger.
 
Longshot said:
In reference to DC13s info...effective section fire to 600m proves that a single trained rifleman can get effective hits that far.They only make it section fire because of a lack of well trained riflemen.I guess they figure a volley of shots might stand a better chance of a hit.Well someone had to fire that shot!The weapon system and ammo are obviously capable,but the limiting factor is the nut behind the trigger.
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To train everyone to confidently engage at 600m is not possible. If DMR is a possibility,we can train the people who needs to do so with the skill. However, commanders need to know to utilize this capability.

On the other hand, why will one order to open up if they have no confident to create effect? If I know guys are not trained to shoot at 600, I won't setup myself to engage at 600.

In a nutshell, I think the cf is realistic about the effectiveness of c7 based on the level we are willing to train to. Individuals who are above the average can exploit the potential.

And with 7.62, it is even more difficult. The drop of 7.62 is much more and it is not as flat as 5.56. Shooting includes ranging and compensating for environmental effect. KD shooting only take into account of part of the package.
 
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