Mosin Nagant - Modern Counterboring?

Drachenblut

Drachenblut

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Hello,

As I am sure we have all seen a Mosin with a beat-up crown, I wanted to voice this question:

Does having a gunsmith counterbore your Mosin to the same specs as say, the Finns, in this modern day, damage the overall value of the firearm significantly? What is the difference in value in a CB and non-CB Mosin?

Sincerely,
Drach
 
I think if you had a Mosin with a damaged crown and had it counter bored because you wanted to make it more accurate say for hunting - that's fine. But it would in my opinion detract from its authenticity as a collectible milsurp.

The Finns counter bored their rifles as a prewar, wartime and postwar expedient to restore accuracy to damaged or worn barrels to save time and money. They also tried sleeving barrels and cutting back chambers. Its part of the historic Finnish military refurbishments. Speaking only for me, I value prewar or wartime refurbishment over postwar (for example spliced stock fingers) unless you are talking about a modern upgrade like the Czech Vz54 or Finn M28/76 and M85.

Another person might value that you took a otherwise acceptable milsurp and improved on it performance but would they be willing to pay a premium or even comparable price for a similar milsurp with a original counter bored muzzle?

That said would you be able to tell the difference between one done by the Finns 70+ years ago and one done now - maybe yes, maybe no. But then would you provide full disclosure if you were selling it? Or refund payment if you sold it without disclosure and the buyer thought the sale fraudulent?

You're in the realm of Mitchell's Mausers there Drach.
 
In my opinion, there's also the "why" you want to counterbore. If the rifle is keyhole-ing, and counterboring is the solution, then... that's a valid reason I think!
 
Drachenblut said:
Hello,

As I am sure we have all seen a Mosin with a beat-up crown, I wanted to voice this question:

Does having a gunsmith counterbore your Mosin to the same specs as say, the Finns, in this modern day, damage the overall value of the firearm significantly? What is the difference in value in a CB and non-CB Mosin?

Sincerely,
Drach
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you might be able to get away with just a new crown. a rounded crown cutter will cut a crown that is identical to the factory one
 
Unless you have a "rare" Mosin, don't worry about it. It probably just needs a new crown for 30 or 40 bucks at a good gunsmith. There millions of them on the market and in private hands so fix what you need to make it shoot properly. Depending on how warn the muzzle is, it doesn't need to be counter-bored.

On an added note, Mosins with warn barrels can shoot quite well with a .312 bullet, where the standard surplus rounds shoot less than desirable groupings.


And value of a Mosin with CB compared to no CB? No difference in value unless its rare. Your targets and deer don't care if its counter-bored.
 
fugawi said:
You're in the realm of Mitchell's Mausers there Drach.
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Hahaha. ha:

Hardly.

If he were going to sell the rifle for more based on a bump job, then yes. However if he is only doing something akin to regular maintenance to keep a rifle functioning, then there is no problem. Moisins aren't rare, and at most, it's maybe $5 off a $160 rifle, not something I'd lose any sleep over.
 
Tyler had it quite right, actually. I would not sell a Mosin for a higher price, unless it was to be used as a hunting/sporting arm, and would indicate this. Personally, for me, I find a piece collectable only if fully functional. If I had a non-CB Mosin M91 that was hitting minute-of-barn-door, then I would re-crown it with a sloped target crown and if it ever sold, would indicate this. In my mind, it is sort of like buying a classic car. What's the point in having it sit for ages, un-driven, knowing that the engine does not function properly, if at all? Would it not be more valuable to someone if it had minor repairs so you could at least drive it to a car show? It only makes logical sense to me. Mosins, at least right now, are not the most expensive pieces of equipment on the market, and to do a touch-up repair to improve it's use, I feel, would make it more collectable, if not more valuable, in the area of monetary value.
 
So Drach, using your logic if you have a matching K98 from WW2 with a poor worn barrel and you swap the barrel with another modern mauser barrel to make it more accurate is it the same? It performs better just like your classic car example but now its not matching. But it will shoot like it was intended.

Counter boring a plinking or hunting rifle is not drastic but why stop there, why not drill the receiver for a scope. Why not replace that stock with a fiberglass one. Many do for a hunting rifle. If its just for plinking/hunting go ahead but for a collectible with a history then you are altering that history. That barrel is worn for a reason.
 
Drachenblut said:
Tyler had it quite right, actually. I would not sell a Mosin for a higher price, unless it was to be used as a hunting/sporting arm, and would indicate this. Personally, for me, I find a piece collectable only if fully functional. If I had a non-CB Mosin M91 that was hitting minute-of-barn-door, then I would re-crown it with a sloped target crown and if it ever sold, would indicate this. In my mind, it is sort of like buying a classic car. What's the point in having it sit for ages, un-driven, knowing that the engine does not function properly, if at all? Would it not be more valuable to someone if it had minor repairs so you could at least drive it to a car show? It only makes logical sense to me. Mosins, at least right now, are not the most expensive pieces of equipment on the market, and to do a touch-up repair to improve it's use, I feel, would make it more collectable, if not more valuable, in the area of monetary value.
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me personaly I would rather have a rifle that shoots well than one that is origional. a rifle is above all a tool. and who wants a dull tool?.
 
I try to buy milsurps that are both but sometimes you can't have it that way. You have to make a choice. If you have a run of the mill M91 go ahead and counter bore it to make it a better shooter if you want - it has limited collectibility.

I have one of these - '43 Izhevsk round receiver M91/30 that I bought 30 years ago for a $39 and because it had dings in the stock - I refinished it. So what - now they cost $169. Do I care. It hits the 2'x2' gong at 300 meters - do I expect or want better accuracy out of it? Am I going to invest any money into making it more accurate? It is what it is - the most common Mosin out there.

I also have a Finn M27. A more accurate Mosin. It has dings in the stock - am I going to refinish it? No way. It has wings on the bolt - these made the bolts bind. The Finns later discontinued this practice. During the Winter War the Finns swapped their winged Finnish bolts for non winged Russian bolts in the field. Would I swap the winged bolt out of my M27 to make it 'better functioning' - no way.

Difference is the '43 Izhevsk round receiver M91/30 is not very collectible and the Finn M27 is.

But again I doubt most would be able to tell when the counter bore was done. So if you want to go ahead and make it more accurate - its your rifle and your money.
 
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fugawi said:
Counter boring a plinking or hunting rifle is not drastic but why stop there, why not drill the receiver for a scope. Why not replace that stock with a fiberglass one. Many do for a hunting rifle. If its just for plinking/hunting go ahead but for a collectible with a history then you are altering that history. That barrel is worn for a reason.
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The slippery slope argument...

That ignores the fact that there are varying degrees of alterations one can do to a rifle. Counterboring isn't the same as drilling and tapping.

Obviousy there are varying schools of thought on the subject. Some guys are fine with letting an old rifle languish in a safe that isn't shootable. Others, like me, aren't. I believe historical rifles are best when brought out to the range and shot. I usually get comments and questions anytime a non-milsurp shooter strolls by, as well as the conversation that follows.

That, to me, is worth more than an M-27 in a safe at home.

YMMV.
 
Go on counter-bore it. Use it! Shoot 'til you don't want to shoot again. Tuck your now "adulterated" but, fine shooting, Mosin away until it's the last one (careful....most abundant milsurp out there so,, try to get comfy while you're waiting). Sell it for what it is...better than what you purchased.

Alternative? Shoot it as is and, have either the range or, the deer wondering "What's up with that guy?"

I feel a bit frustrated at the notion "history will be preserved" by what people choose to do with personal property. It ain't history that needs preservation here folks...it's history's lessons! You're not chopping up a rarity, you're making a fine rifle as functional as you can...

EDIT:
If, by not counterboring, you could possibly prevent sadness on the scale Stalin perpetuated it, things would be different. Swords into plows is folly or, utopia...swords into better "currently functional" swords is a no-brainer

(please don't post pics of your cut-down, painted black muzzle break wearing history in the milsurp section...feel free to post targets before and, after your work to demonstrate your "why"...)
 
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I agree that its more fun to shoot them than to let them sit in a gun safe.

As I said in my opening paragraph to this thread, I have no problem with anyone altering a run of the mill Mosin for whatever purpose - hunting rifle, zombie killer, ninja gun...

But speaking for myself -I would not alter a functioning, historically accurate, collectible rifle that is scarce just to make it better for punching holes in paper. I would accept the condition of the rifle as is or replace it with something better. I would not 'improve' on the condition of any of my collectible Mosins unless it was to replace something bubba'd or not authentic to the rifle. (barrel bands, cleaning rods, etc)

And I know that Drach is not contemplating this (or at least I think he is not CBing a collectible Mosin???) But I gave a comprehensive answer to his question where I think it is acceptable and where I think it is not.

Its may be a slippery slope but there are Mitchells Mausers owners that believe they have an all matching K98 in excellent condition that is valuable as a collector's piece, that most K98 collectors value less than a RC K98. Probably fine shooters but is that how they are being marketed? You might want to check out some of the threads about Mitchell's Mausers or fake cartouches on Boyd's M1 Garand stocks etc on the K98k forum, Milsurp.com and Gunboards. People are selling fake Waffenamt dies on Ebay.
 
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fugawi said:
If its just for plinking/hunting go ahead but for a collectible with a history then you are altering that history. That barrel is worn for a reason.
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Counterboring isn't just to fix the crown. If rifles were at one time improperly stored, rust/pitting will slowly start to creep into the barrel from the muzzle end. This is why you'll sometimes see pitting in the first couple inches from the muzzle on an otherwise perfect bore.
 
mwjones said:
Counterboring isn't just to fix the crown. If rifles were at one time improperly stored, rust/pitting will slowly start to creep into the barrel from the muzzle end. This is why you'll sometimes see pitting in the first couple inches from the muzzle on an otherwise perfect bore.
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That's true but that's the way Drach prefaced his question ...

Drachenblut said:
Hello,

As I am sure we have all seen a Mosin with a beat-up crown, I wanted to voice this question:
Click to expand...

Improperly stored rifles can lead to many problems.
 
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Wait a minute.... Damage the value? Mosins are going for between $110 and $180 depending on the store of the moment. How would crowning the muzzle "damage the value"?

Also the one I recently got was refurbished and part of that was to give it a nicely scored new crown that was left "white". And I suspect that most of the armory refurb' surplus rifles are similarly treated if the crown was damaged during service. So if one that is blued is done by someone like the OP in a similar manner who would be able to tell? Well, other than a Canadian smith doing such a job would do a much nicer job. The cutter that did mine was obviously seeing its last days on this earth judging by the looks of the scored rings on my "new" crown.

At MOST a crown job that replicates the original will remove a few thou of metal. And if it's blued to touch it up then who's going to know or care if it was done next week or back in '42?

EDIT- Please don't take me wrong on this. I love that my Mosin is an example of a WW2 rifle and that it's as it was back then. But part of owning something mechanical like a rifle is that stuff is going to wear or break and will need to be replaced or repaired. Obviously you want to replace with proper parts. But a repair is obviously going to require non historical attention. The key is to do the work in a typical for the time and product manner and, if possible, using the same sort of tools and techniques that would have been used. If done in that way then I say "no harm, no foul".
 
BCRider said:
Wait a minute.... Damage the value? Mosins are going for between $110 and $180 depending on the store of the moment. How would crowning the muzzle "damage the value"?
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^^^This.:p And the rest of this gentleman's fine post as well.
 
refurbed 91.30s and Finn'd Russian M91s are different animals both in handling and pricing but everyone knows that :D.

Drach, I would say wait until you get to the range and work that rifle in before you attempt a counter bore or re-crown of your own. I have some pretty beat up Gewehr 98s that shoot damn well at 300 yards and their crown is probably just as bad when you look at it.
 
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