Average AR15 effective range.

The individual I talked the most with has been to several CFSAC and was out to the last Edit *Bisley* (it was late i was tierd so sue me) we sent guys to in 2007.

I'm not sure what the scope was, I know our DMs overseas had them on their C7's. I believe they were purchased with company operational funds, same as our cammelback smallpacks.

longshot
When the uper reciever can jump inconsitantly , it thoughs off your MPI. hell having a death grip on the handgaurd can through off the riffles natrual fallow through, giving you a bad grouping.
Properly fitting parts are vital to good accuracy, since the barrel , reciever and shooter are all activly moving while the round is still in the barrel. a Great refrence would be the CF video showing the complete firing sequence of the gun through cut away demos, computer simulation and slow motion capture. It realy demonstrates how even the little things can bugger your grouping.
The reason the rubber detent was added to the riffle was to correct the inaccuracy caused by lose fitting recievers. It was a mid life upgrade brought first to C7A1's and then were kept for the A2's

Greentips:
"To train someone to shoot within 300m is quite easy because shooting at KD will be good enough. When we start moving beyond 300m, the other skills are getting more and more importance. To make effective rifleman beyond 300m, we need to conduct much more field range, not just KD. KD is a good exercise to reinforce basic marksmanship skill and establish a reference for wind effect, but we need to practice ranging and adjusting fire.

Of course, if we do not even shoot enough KD at 500, we probably cannot progress to field fire at 500 and up. "

One of the first things in this thread I totaly agree with. guys ##### all the time about not getting to shoot from beyond 300m. Unforchantly this range training is never a priority since after 300m, we have MG's, LAV III's (mmmm 25mm bushmaster goodness) planes with bombs and arti to do the work.
Although in field fire guys get a chance to engage at these distances, most guys have no confidence since they never practised it. One of the few career opertunities that comes up is IPSWQ. during the small arms couching you get a lot of practise with the diffrent weapons systems at various ranges. That course is one of the few times I have gotten to shooting MG's beyond 600m.
 
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WTF is "Wimbly"?

Do you mean "Bisley"? If that is the case you must know that the 2007 Bisley team was selected without a national competition as CFSAC had been cancelled for a few years by that time.

Been there, got the shirt.
 
The last time shooting events were held at "Wembly" was in the 1890's...it's been handed over to the tennis geeks now...

As for the CF Bisley Team in 07....who was he/she? We probably know them.

I was there in 96, 97, 00, 08, 09....

NS
 
Wimbly sound like an awesome training opportunity.

http://composite.about.com/library/glossary/w/bldef-w6097.htm

Definition: A condition of unusual flexibility such as a structural member too flexible to react to destructive compressive loads.
Click to expand...
 
"Small Arms Couching"?
I have to keep checking to see that this is not the 'You Laugh, You Lose' thread.

Let me assure you that the reserves have no monopoly on stupidity or incompetance.
I know enough reservist twenty year Corporals who are beyond the six figures annual income in their civilian jobs. This includes a few Corporals going into their fourth decade of service.

I also remember a time when the CF was the most promising way for a maratimer to get a bus ticket out of the region as well as a means of support. I miss a lot of those folks tremendously.

I could support this with all that I have seen, but you can PM me if you only want the anecdotes. I am not here to tick people off from one unit or another.

If you really insist on re-inventing the wheel, base your thoughts on facts or at least listen and be open to the advice of those trying to tell you here.
 
lawn gnome said:
"Small Arms Couching"?
I know enough reservist twenty year Corporals who are beyond the six figures annual income in their civilian jobs. This includes a few Corporals going into their fourth decade of service.
Click to expand...

That actualy my whole point; you get guys that have it all togeather in reserves, but never get to advance in rank because they can't get away from work for 8 weeks to take a career course. meanwhile the guy working at Mc Donalds ends up a WO.
 
I showed your post to a bunch of mo bums.The two Warrants and the Chief Warrant(none of whom work at McDonalds) laughed at many of your opinions .
I guess guys on class B are sorta like reg force guys then.One contract to another.Your not making many friends here so far.
 
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LordEvilPepper said:
When the uper reciever can jump inconsitantly , it thoughs off your MPI. hell having a death grip on the handgaurd can through off the riffles natrual fallow through, giving you a bad grouping.
Properly fitting parts are vital to good accuracy, since the barrel , reciever and shooter are all activly moving while the round is still in the barrel. a Great refrence would be the CF video showing the complete firing sequence of the gun through cut away demos, computer simulation and slow motion capture. It realy demonstrates how even the little things can bugger your grouping.
The reason the rubber detent was added to the riffle was to correct the inaccuracy caused by lose fitting receivers.
Click to expand...

This accuracy issue can be solved with proper weapons handling.
 
From LordEvilPepper;

"The reason the rubber detent was added to the riffle was to correct the inaccuracy caused by lose fitting recievers. It was a mid life upgrade brought first to C7A1's and then were kept for the A2's"

Actually they were introduced to make people who had just barely enough knowledge to be dangerous feel better - they serve no useful purpose and can in fact cause problems that you don't want to have happen when you're on the 2-way range...


blake
 
FYI, your gap will not casue accuracy issues.

Your gap can theoretically cause malfunctions if it is offset due to binding of the bolt and recoil system in the buffer tube. However I've seen OLD M16A1's with worse slop still cycle fine. Typically if a gun has enough wear on it the auto sear hole will oblong and the weapon will only fire reliably semi-auto, and will hammer follow and cause a dead trigger stoppage with the hammer down on a live round when fired auto (will fire first round okay).

What is likley the issue is that 1 or more of several things is a happening, the chamber is pooched due to blank rounds or excessive auto fire (and especially auto fire with blanks and the throat is burned out, and the chrome starting to flake and peal. The extractor has a chip, cracked off piece, or burr, the extractor spring and bumper is worn, the ejector is binding, either due to deformation or brass having impeeding it, or the ejector spring is 'tired', or your magazine(s) are bad (are they numbered is this specific to certain magazines?

Since your not giving very detailed information ie type of stoppage etc. Its hard to diagnose. Additionally since your comments and those of your "SMEs" has so many glaring holes in it, it is really hard to give much more of what you say any credibility.

Several years ago I posted a 3.2" group a young female Pte from 3VP had shot @ 800m with a 20" AR-15 (1:8 Douglas SS barrel) it had been witnessed by multiple folks in the CF and on this board.

Most of her other groups where in the 5-6" mark so it definetly was not respective - but on the other hand it showed it was possible.




***************
Now onto Target PID.
I attended a US Army User Eval, running thru 20+ trainer snipers (US Army, and USASOC courses) as well as several other folks, we saw that it was impossible to get PID on a rifle carrying individual at 800m with less than a 12x sight, and for the majority it was 15x.
I've shot targets way further with less scope, but the point remains on the effetive side of the house, how far can you 1) Accurately Indentify a target 2) Accurate Engage with effect the target.


I had a rifle team C7A1 with a good (as in never taken to the field) C79, the gun would group under 1" with a known lot of C77 ammo. Granted I was not always that good - but the gun/scope/ammo combo could.
 
Good post Kevin.Hits can be made at long distances with a little training and practice.We ran a DM course for the Westies recently and in their field firing phase they were hitting fig 11s out to 850m with good regularity after finding the right dope.It took 5 days to get them to that point.
It was a UKD range where they had to range the target using only the lines in the C79.While I consider 850m out of the effective range of the weapons system, it just shows what you can do with a little knowledge and practice.Finding the target and identifying it are the limiting factors.
 
Both USSOCOM elements and USMC personnel issues the Mk12 Mod1's have had confirmed kills beyond 1k -- thats using Mk262, a 3-9ish ( depends on element and time period for the scope) and the Douglas 1:7 18" SPR barrel.

The Colt Canada (Deimaco) CHF barrels are capable of SUB-MOA accuracy (we use them here at KAC for our 5.56mm barrels and they often outshoot SS Match barrels).

At the end of the day, its is primarily a TRAINING issue, both for the shooter, and the armorers who should be deadlining N/S weapons, and often its the user who fails to identify the issue to the CQ to tag for the weapons tech's, and leadership who have very little knowledge on weapons systems. I've seen several Reg Force Small Arms Instructor qualified people who where down right dangerous in their knowledge (or lack thereof) of the system they where reported SME's on.

No land force unit in Canada should have an unserviceable weapon, there are enough spares at unit or higher level those should be easily culled from the fleet. That is a failure in leadership.
 
Closed minded? Jeeze I posted the info I was taught, people countered it. So i spent 2 days asking our experinced guys, reading our publications and reading up on similar equipment to ours ( the newer us heavy 5.56 is projected to have a 2%woble along both its x and y axis at 200m) to see if I was wrong. Everything added up to "at 400 meters the round can begin to tumble" so I defend that possition and now im closed minded?

There seems to more attack against my grammer then people posting refrences to prove me wrong. Send me one good link to an actual R and D study(offical not a private one) showing me the c77 round doesn't start to woble and even tumble at 400m and I will shut up and drop it.

Now the shifty C7. The mags wern't great a few of mine had bent lips but I didn't use those unless i had to. Most of the stopages were either 2 or 3 rounds in the reciever with the bolt half way back(the bad mags). When i twisted the riffle a bit shooting around a wall the rifle would fire then jam with the boltcarrier just past the point were the bolt unlocks. Sometimes i would get a clunk on the cycle and then the bolt would stop either on the mag lip or with a round half chambered.

My def of a mo bum is they guys who get a class b for a month then don't work for 2 untill the next contract short term. They just ride the class A days and soak up the courses since they have all the time in the world.
 
The stuff you are posting is junk.You have many elite level shooters from the CF and Kevin is a both a great shot AND works for Knights in the US telling you that you are incorrect in your assumptions.How about post a link proving that C77 does tumble after 400m.
Make believers out of us with something other than hearsay and anicdotes from some supposed experts at you unit whichever one that is.
 
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LordEvilPepper said:
Closed minded? Jeeze I posted the info I was taught, people countered it. So i spent 2 days asking our experinced guys,

Ask them if they know Kevin B, actually ask the older guys in the Bn. See if they trust his experience over the ones you are getting your info from.

There seems to more attack against my grammer then people posting refrences to prove me wrong. Send me one good link to an actual R and D study(offical not a private one) showing me the c77 round doesn't start to woble and even tumble at 400m and I will shut up and drop it.

Show us an official R&D study that C77 does wobble or tumble at 400m.
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...
 
This thread is full of win.

I'd like to the Mr. LordEvilPepper for educating me on the capabilities of the C7 rifle and C77 ammo.
 
Fresh off the range at 500m..... Shot by a reservist.
 

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