Canadian IPSC Classification System

Storm,
you are respectable shooter

Thanks........I actually think that most of us are. I do not for a moment anyone was sandbagging etc. It is just the nature of a broken system.

.
Classification shouldn't matter at all,

Ah but then why have it at all? Why have class standing and class awards? Just have the winners numbers from top to bottom and be done with it.

The fact is people WANT to be classed just like golfers us a "handicap" system.
We just need one that works.


what I think it matters is final standing against best shooter in the nation. Standing is what it counts.

As above that is an argument to get rid of the whole issue.

I have never seen that classification alone would win the match. It is a skill and ability to perform to best in the whole competition.

That is again the overall award system. I am talking the classification system.


I am classify C by ??? who knows who

LOL......you just made Quigleys poiint!! LOL!!!!


:) Do I care, no way I do, it makes me happy that being C
I could only loose to two true GM, three M, one B and one C and two unclass. shooters.
but by your own admission you do not know what a C really means. The fact of the matter is you are really a B or possibly A shooter who is classed as a C.,
:)
We have this system and it is not perfect, but it is what it is and I still will shoot to win not to get classified.

No it is not perfect..........I am not sure that we can eve get to perfection. But we can certainly do better or should do better..........that or toss the whole idea as it is currently a bit of a sham and shame.


Greetings[/QUOTE]
 
The fact is...no one is submitting updated ICS stages. Very odd in Ontario considering the ICS stages are the same ones we currently use for the Ontario system.

Craig,
do you think that ICS are a good kind of reflection of the shooter's skill? :D

It is a standing exercise or with very limited movement. It can be mere guide to a certain level of skill but not close to the whole picture.
Best guide of shooting skills is a large match which has most of the elements of our sport and is attended by best shooters. This is what should be considered before any 'standing exercise' where physical ability, which is important plays very little part of the big picture.
I am not against ICS, they are for reason and are good exercise to improve the skill but they are not a reflection of the quality.

Have one :cheers:
 
Storm,
you are respectable shooter. Classification shouldn't matter at all, what I think it matters is final standing against best shooter in the nation. Standing is what it counts. I have never seen that classification alone would win the match. It is a skill and ability to perform to best in the whole competition. I am classify C by ??? who knows who :) Do I care, no way I do, it makes me happy that being C, I could only loose to two true GM, three M, one B and one C and two unclass. shooters.
We have this system and it is not perfect, but it is what it is and I still will shoot to win not to get classified.

Greetings

He means that a shooter with an A-Class caliber who is classified as a C-Class wins the 1st C trophy because he sandbagged his classification. So it's not fair for the "real" Cs who have nothing to win since they're artificially down the list.

Having fun to shoot is another matter;)
 
Solution to a national classification system that might work....seeing as ICS is only voluntarily submitted and even if it was mandatory then $5 cost per shooter per match is a little costly it appears NOT to be a very good system....IF classifications for shooters based on final standings at our Nationals were used then at least we would be building a good database based upon how each shooter actually ranks in skill level....then for Provincial classifications you can use your top shooters at Nationals to build a Provincial system...........a Provincial system that seems to work whether or not there is a GM or M attending a Provincial qualifier is in use in BC and seems to work, whatever the highest ranked shooter per division in attendance is what all other scores in that particular division are based on, for instance...when a GM is present then all final scores are what they are, when only a M shooter in a certain division is present then all match scores for that division would be multiplied by only the highest percent for a M in that case 95% (assuming M is 85+-95%), if only an A class is present as top shooter in a division then all of that divisiions match scores would be multiplied by only 85% (assuming A class runs 75-85%)....a shooters classification (as used in BC) is based upon the last five level 2 or higher matches shot..dropping the highest and lowest and averaging the other 3...using a system as simple as this whereby all provinces are using the SAME system based upon results of their top shooters standings at Nationals and ALSO all provinces using a Provincial classification that is the SAME (such as BCs) would give a realistic database of actual performance levels and realistic classifications for both Provincial and National use......about the only problem would be getting all Provinces to agree to use the same system
 
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Solution to a national classification system that might work....seeing as ICS is only voluntarily submitted and even if it was mandatory then $5 cost per shooter per match is a little costly it appears NOT to be a very good system....IF classifications for shooters based on final standings at our Nationals were used then at least we would be building a good database based upon how each shooter actually ranks in skill level....then for Provincial classifications you can use your top shooters at Nationals to build a Provincial system...........a Provincial system that seems to work whether or not there is a GM or M attending a Provincial qualifier is in use in BC and seems to work, whatever the highest ranked shooter per division in attendance is what all other scores are based on, for instance...when a GM is present then all final scores are what they are, when only a M shooter in a certain division is present then all match scores for that division would be multiplied by only the highest percent for a M in that case 95% (assuming M is 85+-95%), if only an A class is present as top shooter in a division then all of that divisiions match scores would be multiplied by only 85% (assuming A class runs 75-85%).......using a system as simple as this whereby all provinces are using the SAME system based upon results of their top shooters standings at Nationals and ALSO all provinces using a Provincial classification that is the SAME (such as BCs) would give a realistic database of actual performance levels and realistic classifications for both Provincial and National use

Would you consider that shooters can be dropped to a lower class if their results are not in the right % or if a M stays M for all his life even if his results are lowering ?
 
My opinion is if you are winning a one of the top 3 positions you shouldn't get a Class trophy, regardless of your ranking. I'm not sure how, or why I'm still unclassified. Maybe my Alias name change to Fang from Slavex screwed something up? I'm not sure. Regardless, the next guy down the list from me was Jim Smith (as unclassified), which is also bizarre. As such I am willing to pay postage to get the Unclassified trophy sent to the correct winner by what I can read, Sylvan. But I need his address to do that.
 
to Snowboys question......a shooters classification (as used in BC) is the highest earned that season, ending at their own Provincials.....IF his classification needs lowering after that from Qualifier and Provincial results then it can be lowered for the start of the new season (in BC we use the LAST five level 2 or higher matches for classification...drop the highest and the lowest and average the other 3)
 
I'm not sure if it's broken...or people just don't understand how it works :confused:

I would say at least 25% of the people at the Nats didn't know what an "Alias" was...and just made one up when they filled out the form (but didn't register it with IPSC)

*I did give mine....

Another 15% gave the wrong Alias...

*I clarified at registration what my correct alias is....

There's also a significant number of shooters that don't know the difference between ICS and the current Ontario system.

Of the people that did include ICS information on their match registration from...about 50% had errors.

*I double checked my info....
  • Wrong Alias
  • Wrong Date of Birth
  • Declared wrong Class (which was important because under IPSC Canada rules, you can declare a higher Class than is listed on IPSC.org)

*I declared a HIGHER classification.....

The system is far from perfect...but the competitors could go along way by educating themselves on what it is...and how it works.

See above * in quote.

*AND I ended up being classified too low and missed out on my correct award and deprived someone of thiers.

So what happened?

To clarify I really want to know what happened and how to fix it for the future.
 
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...I'm not sure how, or why I'm still unclassified. Maybe my Alias name change to Fang from Slavex screwed something up? I'm not sure.

Because your name in ICS is Robert and in the match scores you're named as Rob. So, class update tool in WinMSS likely picked up the wrong alias.

Regardless, the next guy down the list from me was Jim Smith (as unclassified), which is also bizarre.

Jim simply doesn't have ICS alias registered. I don't know why, but he is a very good shooter.
 
The US system:
Your percentage is based on your scores as they relate to the high score on file for a particular course of fire. To receive an initial classification, a member needs to
have at least four unduplicated scores in the USPSA classification database prior
to the monthly reclassification procedure. If there are more than four scores on
file, the best four scores of the most recent six scores will be used. Scores are
sorted according to the match date to determine which scores are the most recent.
For matches that are Level I Specials, the scores are further sorted by the score
percent in descending order. In doing so, the lowest scores from a special will be
the first scores to drop out of the most recent scores on file.
After a member has earned a classification, the classification system will look at
the best six unduplicated scores of the most recent eight to evaluate the member’s
current classification percentage.
No scores that calculate to less than 2 percent are used. Also, to prevent unusually
low scores from affecting your classification percentage, scores that are more
than 5 percent below your classification bracket (e.g. a score of 34.99% for a Cclass
competitor) are not used for classification purposes. To guard against the
possibility of incorrect stage setup or typographical error, scores that are more
than 15 percent above your current classification bracket are evaluated at the time
of entry to see if such a score would adversely affect your classification. In general,
those scores are entered, but occasionally a score is so out of the ordinary it
is not used and flagged with an A.
So members can keep track of their scores, all scores received are entered into the
database, but may be given a “flag” to indicate its status. The possible flags are:
A— A score that is more than 15% above the member’s current classification
bracket.
B — A score that is more than 5% below the member’s current classification
bracket.
C — A score that is more than one class below the highest class in any division
attained by the member. e.g. A member has a Master class in Open
division and a B class score in Limited is submitted. This score will be
flagged with C and not used.
D — Duplicate course - a higher score for this course already exists in the
most recent six or eight scores.
E — A score that is not in the most recent six or eight scores.
F — Ascore that is one of the two lowest scores in the most recent six or eight
scores.
Y — A score that has been used as part of the classification percentage calculation.
Please note that for unclassified members, the first scores submitted, except for
those that are 2 percent or less, will be used to calculate an initial classification.
After a classification has been earned in a division, new scores will be evaluatedaccording to the flagging system shown above. This can and does result in new
scores not being used for reclassification purposes even though they are higher
than some of the initial scores that were submitted, but still lower than your classification
bracket. Any such low score should move out of the most recent group
as newer scores that conform to your current classification are entered into the
system.
The classification system is run between the 10th and the 15th of each month,
depending on whether the 10th is on a weekend. ALL scores received in the Sedro
Woolley office on or before the 10th of each month are entered into the classification
database. Over the next day or two, those scores are checked to ensure that
they were entered correctly from the printed summary sheets submitted by clubs.
After any corrections have been made, the computer classification program is
started to evaluate each member’s current scores and to calculate a new current
classification percentage. At the conclusion of this procedure, the new data is
compiled and sent to the USPSA web site. Please note that the classification data
on the web site is updated only one time each month.
If you feel your classification is too low, you may request the next higher class,
up to but not including Grand Master. Requests are made in writing and submitted
with a letter from your club president or Section Coordinator (SC) endorsing
your request. If your request is approved, you will be moved up at the next regular
calculation period.
Your performance in larger matches and tournaments may also be used to help
establish classification. Placement in a major event with a score above your
assigned class percentage may result in your being promoted to a higher class,
even if your current average is lower. Winning first or second in class at an Area
Championship or Major Tournament AND shooting into the next higher class
may result in promotion (except to Grand Master); winning High Overall in an
Area Championship may promote you to Grand Master class. In addition, if you
score 95% or higher at a USPSA national championship, you will be immediately
moved to Grand Master class for that division.
To go down in class you must: 1) request in writing to be moved down, citing
your reasons and justification; 2) have a club president or SC concur with your
request in writing; and 3) have no current scores on record that indicate you
should remain in your assigned class.
You may also participate in the classification system if you are a USPSA member
living outside the United States by forming, or shooting with one of our foreign
affiliate clubs. Foreign affiliate clubs need to request a special registration
form from USPSA headquarters and pay a yearly registration fee for this service.
Members shooting outside the United States do not pay individual classification
fees and do not earn activity credit to attend the Nationals
 
My opinion is if you are winning a one of the top 3 positions you shouldn't get a Class trophy, regardless of your ranking. I'm not sure how, or why I'm still unclassified. Maybe my Alias name change to Fang from Slavex screwed something up? I'm not sure. Regardless, the next guy down the list from me was Jim Smith (as unclassified), which is also bizarre. As such I am willing to pay postage to get the Unclassified trophy sent to the correct winner by what I can read, Sylvan. But I need his address to do that.

It did. I'd be interested in why or how you think you changed your alias...because I was always told you couldn't. I checked your previous Alias and it is current. I checked you new Alias (the one you listed on your form) and no surprise...it doesn't exist.

...and thanks for proving my point :cool:
 
I don't know who you are...so I can't answer that...

I don;t have the registration forms...but I do have the WinMss database we used at the Nationals. PM me your info (name, Alias, and what class you think you should be) and I can have a look.

I went though everything twice (once for Category info and again for Alias and actual vs declared class) but I was having issues getting the ICS class updates in. Bill (who helped us in stats) had an ICS (I checked the internet) he had an ICS class in the members database but I had to run the update 4 times before it showed in the Match results.

See above * in quote.

*AND I ended up being classified too low and missed out on my correct award and deprived someone of thiers.

So what happened?

To clarify I really want to know what happened and how to fix it for the future.
 
Because your name in ICS is Robert and in the match scores you're named as Rob. So, class update tool in WinMSS likely picked up the wrong alias.



Jim simply doesn't have ICS alias registered. I don't know why, but he is a very good shooter.

No...Rob "changed" his Alias. Or so he thinks :cool:

Jim didn't provide an Alias...and as far as I can remember he has never had one.
 
Because so many people from outside of Canada call me Fang, I figured I'd ask if I could change my alias, even though I had read years ago that we couldn't. I was told it was okayed and changed to Fang. Perhaps the system hasn't been updated? I honestly don't know. I'm probably also guilty of not filling in the form right and not putting GM on the original registration (though I did on the questionnaire). I typically do paperwork in the mornings after nightshift, so my error rate is pretty high.
 
The ICS system isn't the way to go, as it is easily manipulated, as pointed out.

What is stopping the Provinces from reaching an agreement on one system? Why, after all these years, are there so many different approaches?

It hardly encourages inter-provincial rivalry when your ranking isn't recognised.
 
Craig,
do you think that ICS are a good kind of reflection of the shooter's skill? :D

Actually yes...if it is done right.

If we have one Classifier stage at each match...it would give an accurate reflection of how someone is shooting over the long term.

Having Classifier matches where you shoot 6 classifier stages in one match...and don;t shoot any additional classifier stages for 8 or 9 months...is merely a reflection of how you shot on that particular day.

It doesn't matter if you think you can shoot on the move if you have a 2 second draw, ####ty cadence and no accuracy,

Classifiers are a reflection of your fundamentalism skills...that far too many shooters ignore (myself included)
 
I honestly don't know. I'm probably also guilty of not filling in the form right and not putting GM on the original registration (though I did on the questionnaire). I typically do paperwork in the mornings after nightshift, so my error rate is pretty high.

In this case it would't have mattered. You could only declare a higher Classification if the system showed you had a current ICS Class. "Fang was not current"

So...FYI...fang shows no current Classifier stages...and Slavex is still current.
 
to Snowboys question......a shooters classification (as used in BC) is the highest earned that season, ending at their own Provincials.....IF his classification needs lowering after that from Qualifier and Provincial results then it can be lowered for the start of the new season (in BC we use the LAST five level 2 or higher matches for classification...drop the highest and the lowest and average the other 3)

So, does the shooter have the choice to stay at a higher class than its performance ?

In QC, we use average of L3 = 60% and average of best 4 L2 = 40%
 
The ICS system isn't the way to go, as it is easily manipulated, as pointed out.

What is stopping the Provinces from reaching an agreement on one system? Why, after all these years, are there so many different approaches?

It hardly encourages inter-provincial rivalry when your ranking isn't recognised.

ICS is the only system that compares actual stage results for everyone *(ie everyone shoots the same stages)

It doesn't matter if Alberta, or BC or Ontario use the same algorithm to calculate the results (best Level 3 and best 2 or 4 Level 2's for example) if those same people are not shooting against each other at the same matches. The results would still be influenced by geography.

It's been discussed to death for t he last 20 years. ICS is not perfect but it's workable if people actually start shooting ICS stages.
 
No...Rob "changed" his Alias. Or so he thinks :cool:

Jim didn't provide an Alias...and as far as I can remember he has never had one.

As far as I can see, there is two entries in the ICS system: Robert - Slavex (with all his ics entries there) and Rob - Fang (with no ics entries). Don't ask me how do I know that. :cool:

Slavex, perhaps you should contact the HQ and ask them to fix it in the system. I.e. merge those records into one under a proper alias.
 
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