I am just getting into flintlocks, I have a .50 cal lyman trade gun. I am going deer hunting with it this year and was wondering what my range should be. I am shooting patched round ball (188 grns) and am still settling on a load i think it will be 70-90 grains fffg goex. I'm grouping about 4" to 5" at 100 yards. Would it be ethical to push to 150 Yards? Thanks, skokie.
Ethical Questions?
- Thread starter skokie
- Start date
IMHO, probably not. I assume that you are using open sights and that 4 to 5 inch group is achieved under ideal range conditions. Under real world hunting conditions, your accuracy will likely diminish. If you are not convinced, try it out. Install a target in the woods, gradually increasing the distance starting at 50 yards, and shoot from a standing, sitting or prone position, using only normal hunting implements, i.e shooting stick or pack, as a gun rest. The range from which you can reliably shoot a 6 inch target is your maximum ethical range.
if you know the exact distance to the deer, by pre-marking the area, you could do it, with a lot of practice to know the ballistics of your load. I use a kentucky in 45 cal. I use round ball for small game, with a 25 gr. fffG load. For bigger stuff, I use a 250 gr. Maxi ball and 70 gr. ffG. I can keep the maxi's in a 4-6" circle (offhand) at 100 yards. At 125, the drop is about 6". I have never tried it past that, but given that the BC on a Maxi is quite a bit higher than for RB, I suspect that under or over estimating the distance by even a few yards could make the difference between a kill and a miss, or even worse, a cripple.
My furthest muzzleloader whitetail kill (and only attempt) was 300m, give or take 25. That was absolutely perfect conditions with sabots and a scope. I wouldn't normally do that kind of a shot but it was last day and the guy I was hunting with needed some food for his family.
The furthest I go with my traditional "kentucky" rifles are 100m with round ball. I just couldn't justify going any further. If you can hit a 6" circle from any distance you should be able to take down a deer. But that would be pushing it.
I use between 100 and 110gr of ffg. I used to use 70-80gr but after a long discussion with a friend who is more knowledgeable in black powder than me, I bumped it up. The results were amazing. Especially the extra hitting power. The round balls were definitely more accurate at 100m.
The furthest I go with my traditional "kentucky" rifles are 100m with round ball. I just couldn't justify going any further. If you can hit a 6" circle from any distance you should be able to take down a deer. But that would be pushing it.
I use between 100 and 110gr of ffg. I used to use 70-80gr but after a long discussion with a friend who is more knowledgeable in black powder than me, I bumped it up. The results were amazing. Especially the extra hitting power. The round balls were definitely more accurate at 100m.
When I was using the rock lock for target shooting my load for 100 yards was 100 grains FFg with a patch 0.490 round ball. It woudl consistently group around two inches off the crossed sticks. This was a Bauska barreled full stock hawken style rifle with a tuned Siler lock. In the Lyman you should easily work up to the 100 grain load. Keep the flint sharp and ensure it is square with the frizzen about 1/32" from the face of the frizzen when at half #### with the frizzen closed. Stay away from synthetic flints and use only English flints. Keep the frizzen clean as well as the edge of the flint. Use a flash hole pick when loading and make the load is firmly compacted when seating the round ball.
This may already have covered your loading routine, though it will help with consistent groups. You should be able to shrink your groups a bit. The idea of shooting at game past 100 yards with groups running 4 inches would not be a good idea.
Cheers
This may already have covered your loading routine, though it will help with consistent groups. You should be able to shrink your groups a bit. The idea of shooting at game past 100 yards with groups running 4 inches would not be a good idea.
Cheers
vagrantviking
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
I would agree with the above. The ballistics of a round ball just go to hell after 100-125 yards.
A related issue is being able to accurately judge distances. Its a lot tougher than most people realise particularly in the heat of the moment. Ranagefinders are a good investment.
A related issue is being able to accurately judge distances. Its a lot tougher than most people realise particularly in the heat of the moment. Ranagefinders are a good investment.
Over the past 25 years of muzzleloading using a .495 round ball, I have taken 3 whitetails at over 100 yards, the longest shot was 125. My rests were rock solid and I was 100% sure of the shot. One shot was broadside and the ball went strait through. The second shot had the doe facing me and when she put her head down to eat I hit her in the spine between her front shoulders, the ball travelled a few inched up her spine, she dropped to the shot. The last one was 125 paces, and again a spine shot, but this time the ball just flattened against the spinal column. He was crippled but not dead. The ball just ran out of energy. I was using 80g of Pyrodex rs. I have passed on anything over 100 yards since. I have also switched to a .54 cal using a 235g ball.
stevejones
Regular
- Location
- Courtenay, BC
I think posting your question was a very good idea as a lot of shooters and hunters have no idea or at best a very poor one of what their muzzle loader can do. Your gun is very capable of killing a deer up to 100 yards with a patched round ball. That being said, a 4 inch group is not good enough. If you take into consideration that hunting conditions are no were near ideal you should cut your maximum range to 50 yards. All it takes is the smallest case of"buck fever" to make the difference. Take some time to practice with your gun and even then, if you have to shoot past 100 yards go to a conical projectile like a Thompson center Maxi or Lee REAL bullet. Then you will have something that could kill any animal on the continent (no gizzlies, at least not around me please) if you do your job.
Cheers. Steve.
Cheers. Steve.
Steve, I think the 4" group thing is subjective. If your front-stuffer consistently does 4" groups and you can keep shots in a 6" circle. offhand, at 100 yards, you're light-years ahead of 90% of hunters out there. Also, based on what I've seen, the vast majority of rifles used by hunters can barely equal and hardly ever surpass that kind of accuracy. remember, most guys never tune, clean, or seriously sight in their guns, and they shoot a hodge-podge of whatever ammo is available at CTC or Home Hardware at the time.
IMHO, 4" accuracy is plenty good if you carefully set up your shot - no brush or branches in the way, a stationary or very slowly walking animal that is not overly edgy (lock time on a flinch-lock can give them time to start jumping before the shot gets to them), and so on.
stevejones
Regular
- Location
- Courtenay, BC
If subjective means a miss or a wounded deer I agree... If you are getting that kind of accuracy and then consider poor lighting, the difficulty of judging range in the woods ,and that there are branches (and trees), you need to practice more. This is how I feel about it. If someone wants to shoot at something at that range then they should set up a target (safe place please) in the woods at 100 yards + and see how they do.
Steve.
I think we're both on the same page here, Steve. My first post on the subject mentioned the importance of knowing the exact range. I am also very selective on what shots I will try. Unless I am morally convinced that I will get a one-shot kill, I don't pull the trigger. When hunting with shotgun (slugs), BP or crossbow, I always mark distances using different coloured flagging in an arc where I will be hunting from. With X-bow, I start at 30 yds, the range at which I star to get some drop, out to 50, the max I will try. My scope is an Excalibur calibrated for range. When shotgun or BP shooting, I start marking at 50, every 25 yds, out to about 100, which is the furthest I can see where I hunt. When I used to hunt bear on power lines, with centerfires, I knew the distance between poles, and could estimate distance to within 20 yds. or so. If I ever get back into CF hunting, my first purchase will be a quality laser rangefinder.
Thanks guys, I was always taught not to squeeze the trigger unless you know 100% that its a dead animal. I will definitely be putting another couple hundred shots through this rifle before aiming at a four legged target, for accuracy and to get used to the lock firing. My question is perhaps more about the accuracy and killing power of a 190 grain roundball past 100 yards. By the sounds of things you recommend a conical or minie past that distance. I think also a thinner front sight is in order as this one is almost an 1/8" wide, and maybe a rear peep. Any suggestions on sights?
stevejones
Regular
- Location
- Courtenay, BC
You could check Track of the Wolfs on line catalog. They have a good selection of sights that will fit your gun. In the meantime you can keep practicing. Have you tried different loads in your gun? The gun you have has a 1:48 twist that can stabilize a round ball well but you have to play with it more to make it work. Different ball sizes: .490/.495 and patch thickness: .010, .015 and maybe .020 will change the results remarkably. Another thing that will tighten that group up is what you are lubricating your patches with. The grease type lubes are not good for shooting at the range as they do not reduce the fouling residue left over each time you fire. A patch lube that makes the patch wet will clean the bore as you load and leave what residue is left wet so it does not impede accuracy as much. You can use the original lube called spit....or there are lots of commercial lubes/cleaners out there. I make mine from blue wind shield washer fluid. I add enough water soluble cutting oil to make it cloudy/milky, then add a table spoon of Murphys oil soap (to a 4 liter container). Squeeze the excess from the patch when you are loading as you want to "keep yer powder dry"". You can shoot all day and your barrel will not foul. The grease type lubes are better for hunting as they do not dry out.
Hope this has been helpful. Steve.
A good rule of thumb for practical marksmanship would be that the farthest distance at which you can consistently hit an 8" circle (or a paper plate) from a given position should be the maximum range at which you should attempt a shot at a big game animal.
I suggest that you actually try shooting at 150 yards from a variety of positions to see how consistently you can make hits on that 8" circle. Given that 4-5 MOA corresponds to 6"-7.5" at 150 yards, my prediction is that you will have a tough time meeting that standard from any position when the rifle's accuracy is in itself approaching the maximum.
I suggest that you actually try shooting at 150 yards from a variety of positions to see how consistently you can make hits on that 8" circle. Given that 4-5 MOA corresponds to 6"-7.5" at 150 yards, my prediction is that you will have a tough time meeting that standard from any position when the rifle's accuracy is in itself approaching the maximum.
You can figure it out for yourself. Can you hit a 6" kill zone, and does your ball retain enough energy at that range to penetrate for a clean kill?
If you need to ask then it's probably not ethical.
Fair enough.
