NEA vs Norc AR - help me justify spending more $$$

[heavenIsAlie]

People who buy Norincos generally are not people who buy 2000 dollar rifles to begin with...not a lot of market crossover there IMO. The existence of the Norinco really means that people who would ordinarily only buy $500 guns can now also buy ARs or whatever.

I don't think it makes it any harder to move a quality AR.

If it has an impact on any ARs, it would be the bottom of the barrel North American stuff like DPMS et al. But the high end stuff is not affected by the existence of made-in-china lookalikes.

i think middle of the road US stuff (RRA perhaps) is going to take a hit with the NEA release, norc release not so much, just ment people who kind of wanted an AR got an AR to play with, not the ones who REALLY wanted an AR, cause they didnt buy a norc

 

[mg4201]

People who buy Norincos generally are not people who buy 2000 dollar rifles to begin with...not a lot of market crossover there IMO. The existence of the Norinco really means that people who would ordinarily only buy $500 guns can now also buy ARs or whatever.

I don't think it makes it any harder to move a quality AR.

If it has an impact on any ARs, it would be the bottom of the barrel North American stuff like DPMS et al. But the high end stuff is not affected by the existence of made-in-china lookalikes.

unless an ar is an armalite or a colt they are all look a likes. and judging by the car industry I wouldn't consider american made to be a selling point. what makes you sure that the 2k ar is composed of "american made" parts?

 

[misanthropist]

They aren't, necessarily...but very few ARs at the $2000 level contain the extremely shoddy small parts of the cheap ARs. As I said before, I don't care where the stuff is built, I only care that it's spec'd properly.

Which Norinco - and I am not necessarily against Norinco, either, I own some Norinco stuff myself and at one point had 8 Norinco guns in my safe - definitely does not do.

The Norinco ARs are just like all the other Norinco stuff...in stock form, good for light duty goofing around.

If carefully rebuilt (assuming properly spec'd parts fit) probably very functional guns. But the small parts and assembly can't be trusted.

 

[hori]

did you ever wonder why the high dollar ar guys hate the norc?. because it makes it way harder to sell a super expensive ar that is only a little better than the norc but costs 2-3x as much. The NEA will change the ar market because the 2000 dollar AR is going to look pretty silly in comparison providing that the NEA lives up to the hype.

There are many AR companies in the U.S that are small and unknown that have been trying to do the same thing and all want to be a game changer.... but at the end of the day people will still buy the $2000 AR because of experience and reputation. So I guess companies like LT,BCM and Noveske are gonna look pretty silly in comparison to NEA because they dont have top secret lube and machined billet uppers and lowers.

I don/t hate the norc but you saying its only a little better than an AR that costs 3X more ....come on you know better... there is no comparison the norc is better jk

 

[mg4201]

There are many AR companies in the U.S that are small and unknown that have been trying to do the same thing and all want to be a game changer.... but at the end of the day people will still buy the $2000 AR because of experience and reputation. So I guess companies like LT,BCM and Noveske are gonna look pretty silly in comparison to NEA because they dont have top secret lube and machined billet uppers and lowers.

I don/t hate the norc but you saying its only a little better than an AR that costs 3X more ....come on you know better... there is no comparison the norc is better jk

well I would guarantee that the uppers are machined on all of the brands you mentioned unless they are made by magic elves there is no other way to do it. As far as top secret lube if that coating is as good as the coating I have been getting on inserts lately it will be a huge deal on my carbides the difference in wear is a bout 50 -75% greater. and yes charging double for a product with no measurable advantage will make them seem silly or greedy. If people want to pay double they should do that as long as it makes them happy.

 

[axxxel]

IPSC rifle just got legal in sweden and people are buying AR-15s made in germany for a cost of roughly 3000CAD.

NEA could be a North American manufacturer that UNLIKE it's american counterparts can export to Europe.

 

[50calshooter]

Sometimes it's the name people are paying for.

 

[GilesG]

The answer to your question has been said already, but here goes...

The reason NEA-15 will be worth extra money is,

-Machined Billet Upper (Strength & Appearance)
-Machined Billet Lower (Strength & Appearance)
-Free Float Quad Rail (Strength, Performance & Appearance)
-Barrel and receiver internal coatings (Performance)
-10.5 or 14.5 Barrel Options (Variety to suit your needs)
-Type III Ano (Better Finish)
-Canadian Warranty (No brainier)
-Canadian product support (No brainier)
-All parts Canadian manufactured (No brainier)
-Canadian quality Control (Better then child labor control)
-Supporting the Canadian Economy (No brainier)

I think thats about it, is that worth the extra 200 bucks?

The problem with comparing these two rifles is that we don't know much about the Norinco. Are the receivers cast or forged? What type of Al is used? What barrel steel? Class/type of anodization?

You can speculate all you want, and hope that the rifle is cast from the lowest grade metals in order to satisfy any bias that you have. But the fact is we don't know.

I haven't been following the NEA rifles, but what grade Al are they made from? What are these "Barrel and receiver internal coatings" that you speak of?

OP, there really isn't enough info to go on yet. The CQ-A exists and functions well. Finish on these rifles is decent. We don't know anything about the materials used (however other Norinco firearms prior to the CQ-A have used very good quality metals ie. M305 and 1911 series, if that is any indication).

The NEA offering has yet to be exposed to the public. It should work as good as any other AR. I'd bet 5 dollars sight unseen that the finish will be better.

If both rifles are going to go bang, it would really come down to this. If you can't stand cosmetically inferior/rough around the edges products, and paying the $300+ extra is fine with you, go with the NEA. If you want it now, for less, and made with *possibly* better materials, the CQ-A is your gun.

 

[50calshooter]

The problem with comparing these two rifles is that we don't know much about the Norinco. Are the receivers cast or forged? What type of Al is used? What barrel steel? Class/type of anodization?

We know lots about the norc, I mean look at it, it looks like s**t. Sure it's a good plinker but it ain't anything to write home about. It's forged pot metal with a s**tty finish.

You can speculate all you want, and hope that the rifle is cast from the lowest grade metals in order to satisfy any bias that you have. But the fact is we don't know.

Exactly my point, hell if I owned one, I wouldn't wanna know.

I haven't been following the NEA rifles, but what grade Al are they made from? What are these "Barrel and receiver internal coatings" that you speak of?

Machined from billet 6061 T6 and the coatings are some type of dry film lubricant, I don't know much about it, but I do know that it's a feature they've included.

OP, there really isn't enough info to go on yet. The CQ-A exists and functions well. Finish on these rifles is decent. We don't know anything about the materials used (however other Norinco firearms prior to the CQ-A have used very good quality metals ie. M305 and 1911 series, if that is any indication).

Finish on the rifle is not "decent" it's s**t, period. You can polish a turd all you want but in the end it's still just a turd. And no, China does not use good steel on anything they produce. It's all s**t mix steel.

The NEA offering has yet to be exposed to the public. It should work as good as any other AR. I'd bet 5 dollars sight unseen that the finish will be better.

If both rifles are going to go bang, it would really come down to this. If you can't stand cosmetically inferior/rough around the edges products, and paying the $300+ extra is fine with you, go with the NEA. If you want it now, for less, and made with *possibly* better materials, the CQ-A is your gun.

Wrong again, you choose to ignore facts in order to promote commie junk. First off, the finish and QC will be 10 times better and done by Canadians, not child labor. Second, it's not "possibly" better materials, it WILL be made with better materials. The finish isn't the only win the NEA has, re-read what I posted above, cuz clearly you just ignored it.

It's as simple as this, Canadian manufacturing and Canadian or (NA) raw materials are far superior, we have some of the best steel mills in the world.

WTF are you talking about, really?!?

 

[Kveldulf]

Finish on the rifle is not "decent" it's s**t, period. You can polish a turd all you want but in the end it's still just a turd. And no, China does not use good steel on anything they produce. It's all s**t mix steel.

I simply cannot agree with you about that. All the Chinese guns I have ever seen have been made from quite superior steel. China is famous for the quality of its steel. This does not apply to aluminum or other metals -- I will NOT buy any Chinese gun with an aluminum frame. Nor will the fit and finish be anywhere near top of the line. But the steel will be first rate.

The best reason, perhaps the only good reason, for not buying a Chinese gun is the same reason I go out of my way not to buy Chinese shoes or clothing -- by turning all manufacturing over to China we are putting ourselves out of work.

 

[RememberTheSomme]

did you ever wonder why the high dollar ar guys hate the norc?. because it makes it way harder to sell a super expensive ar that is only a little better than the norc but costs 2-3x as much. The NEA will change the ar market because the 2000 dollar AR is going to look pretty silly in comparison providing that the NEA lives up to the hype.

Exactly what I was getting at, however, I'm sure there will always be the market share for those high end AR's. If I literally had the cash or could even be disciplined enough to wait and save the cash, I would get a KAC or Noveske for sure. I respect attention to detail. It's been my passion in my own work.
These Canadian AR's, at that price, will put many more newbies like me into an AR platform, will probaly cause in my mind, the Nork CQb to drop to M14S price levels( Oh, no ,not much resale for my nork!) and therefore bring an even lesser budgeted shooter into the AR world. It can only be win-win for everyone. High end AR will suffer intially as well as Low end AR's, but the market will balance out, the first time Nork owner(499.00AR) will buy an NEA next time around. The NEA first timer after getting his feet wet, may upgrade to something more exotic from the USA because he will get good resal on the EE for his NEA. I think it's all good.
Some say the High end sellers of (KAC and Noveske etc) will suffer on profit at first, but I think the Nork mark up will suffer as much in direct dollar value, and thats on a 1/4 price AR. The high end market fills the wants and needs of Canadians with alot more disposable income than myself.
The market will find its level and the NEA may be the new" bench mark" to go up, or down from.
Bench Mark meaning this,........ It is fit and finished properly, functions properly in all tests. Lets say its the new Honda Civic of AR's. You can go way, way up, or you can go down, but as far as driving from point A to B , and doing it day in day out for years, ultimately, for the AVERAGE person, it is all one needs. It is merely a tool.
The pros may demand more, and I fully understand their reasoning. This will always apply, we will always have to pay tops for absolute performance. It applies in the Tool world as it does in the AR world.:

 

[Teapot]

I'd like to hunt with an AR but I do not see one in my future as long as they are range toys. Most of the AR's out there are well built but I'd tend to go with the Canadian manufacturer simply to support this country.

 

[50calshooter]

I simply cannot agree with you about that. All the Chinese guns I have ever seen have been made from quite superior steel. China is famous for the quality of its steel. This does not apply to aluminum or other metals -- I will NOT buy any Chinese gun with an aluminum frame. Nor will the fit and finish be anywhere near top of the line. But the steel will be first rate.

The best reason, perhaps the only good reason, for not buying a Chinese gun is the same reason I go out of my way not to buy Chinese shoes or clothing -- by turning all manufacturing over to China we are putting ourselves out of work.

Doubtful, My company is a major distributor of spring steel and Chinese spring steel is a disgrace compared to Canadian steel. This based on first hand experience. I think you may be referring to Japan steel because the Japanese do have good steel.

 

[50calshooter]

Exactly what I was getting at, however, I'm sure there will always be the market share for those high end AR's. If I literally had the cash or could even be disciplined enough to wait and save the cash, I would get a KAC or Noveske for sure. I respect attention to detail. It's been my passion in my own work.
These Canadian AR's, at that price, will put many more newbies like me into an AR platform, will probaly cause in my mind, the Nork CQb to drop to M14S price levels( Oh, no ,not much resale for my nork!) and therefore bring an even lesser budgeted shooter into the AR world. It can only be win-win for everyone. High end AR will suffer intially as well as Low end AR's, but the market will balance out, the first time Nork owner(499.00AR) will buy an NEA next time around. The NEA first timer after getting his feet wet, may upgrade to something more exotic from the USA because he will get good resal on the EE for his NEA. I think it's all good.
Some say the High end sellers of (KAC and Noveske etc) will suffer on profit at first, but I think the Nork mark up will suffer as much in direct dollar value, and thats on a 1/4 price AR. The high end market fills the wants and needs of Canadians with alot more disposable income than myself.
The market will find its level and the NEA may be the new" bench mark" to go up, or down from.
Bench Mark meaning this,........ It is fit and finished properly, functions properly in all tests. Lets say its the new Honda Civic of AR's. You can go way, way up, or you can go down, but as far as driving from point A to B , and doing it day in day out for years, ultimately, for the AVERAGE person, it is all one needs. It is merely a tool.
The pros may demand more, and I fully understand their reasoning. This will always apply, we will always have to pay tops for absolute performance. It applies in the Tool world as it does in the AR world.:

Us high end AR guys (as you put it) don't give two s**ts about other brands pricing. We buy our LMT's, Knights, and Noveskes etc. because of the quality they represent, essentially the name.

Just cuz hyundai competes with Mercedes (so they say) I'm still not going to buy a hyundai, I buy Mercedes because the name has value, it stands for something and quite frankly gives me a boner. No different then LMT does.

Believe it or not a brand name does add value.

 

[RememberTheSomme]

Us high end AR guys (as you put it) don't give two s**ts about other brands pricing. We buy our LMT's, Knights, and Noveskes etc. because of the quality they represent, essentially the name.

Just cuz hyundai competes with Mercedes (so they say) I'm still not going to buy a hyundai, I buy Mercedes because the name has value, it stands for something and quite frankly gives me a boner. No different then LMT does.

Believe it or not a brand name does add value.

I'm not quite getting your post quoting my post. I explained fully the quality and thus pricing of the KAC's and LMT's. High end tools have respect and the mark up for the name alone is figured in. I am no dummy on why tools of various manufacturers cost what they do.

Exactly what are you adding here?
To quote with "I don't give a damn blah blah balh you have obviously not read my complete post, else you err'd and were intending to quote another post?

 

[bjs7293]

It seems to me that there are alot of "Brand Whores" here making posts. If you layed out four of the same style of AR's with no brand markings, would these brand whores be a tell the brand or the quality of the rifle? I think not.

 

[misanthropist]

In my experience, you can get very good steel out of China...they are entirely capable of building to whatever spec you want.

The real problem is when stuff is built to lousy specs.

Of all the Chinese guns I've owned, none had issues with a major, spec'd component. Frames, receivers, slides, barrels...all good. The Norinco 1911s are favoured for base guns to do customs on because the steel is very, very good.

But the machining quality is variable, the small parts are usually junk and the springs in particular can't be trusted at all. Furthermore, build quality is generally lousy, because obviously it's not like Norinco looks at its employees as a valuable resource to train and retain.

But their 1911 frames, for example, seem to be built out of 5100...which probably has a lot to do with why Bill Wilson recommended them.

The Chinese CAN build garbage parts. But they can also build pretty good stuff. The springs you're looking at are probably spec'd to be cheap.

 

[misanthropist]

It seems to me that there are alot of "Brand Whores" here making posts. If you layed out four of the same style of AR's with no brand markings, would these brand whores be a tell the brand or the quality of the rifle? I think not.

Some probably couldn't.

Some things are hard to tell from looking no matter how much of an expert you are, though...how different does a bolt that's been MPI'd look than one that hasn't?

 

[hori]

It seems to me that there are alot of "Brand Whores" here making posts. If you layed out four of the same style of AR's with no brand markings, would these brand whores be a tell the brand or the quality of the rifle? I think not.

prob not but dump a 15,000 rounds through them and the BCM, KAC and Noveske will be still ready to go. Reputation speaks volume.

 

[Armedsask]

It seems to me that there are alot of "Brand Whores" here making posts. If you layed out four of the same style of AR's with no brand markings, would these brand whores be a tell the brand or the quality of the rifle? I think not.

You ever look at a Norinco? They are clearly lesser quality to even the untrained eye.